Margaret Thatcher

[caminito]

Papa ...good to see you up and about .
Can't agree with your posting  at all !

 Quote...
I can only surmise Chris, that you do not read all of my writings as if you did you would know that any time I see something wrong in ANY political party, I criticise these flaws when I see them. Although I am basically left wing in my leanings I never shirk from pointing out when the left wing has lunged to the right ( Like Blair's version of the Labour Party did ).


That is not criticising left wing policies ,  mistakes or extremism of Old Labour , that is only pointing out when anyone in the party turns away from the outdated tenets 


Quote..
I regularly say, ( as does Ivanhoe ), that Blair's and Brown's mutating of the Labour party dragged it away from it's core values. I now expect young Ed Miliband to drag it right back to the left where it belongs.


God forbid that Red Ed drags the Labour party back to the Wison/Callaghan era  of union power and ideology which always turned out to be  impractical and cost the UK dearly !


Quote...
My whole life has been spent resisting extremism and hard-line views of politics and during that time the most extreme and hard line of the people I have been watching has been a certain Margaret Thatcher.   


I resisted the 1970's Old Labour debacle and union extremism which got the UK into such a mess that it took years for the conservatives to sort out ....AND here we go again !

[Hugh]

Sorry Papa but Caminito sums up my views on old labour.

[Chrisjay]

Papa I do read your postings and disagree that MT was the most extreme - she did not take us into an unwinable war (in fact we won the only war she took us into) on the premise of a lie which B Liar knew to be a lie and has devastated a country which should have been rebuilt on the oil that belonged to that country but we now hear nothing of that oil and the country certainly has not been rebuilt in fact their infrastructure is appalling.

An unwinable war in Afghanistan it's another Vietnam - the Russian's have tried to conquer them before and did not succeed and we are losing British lives to do what because it is making no difference to Muslim extremism?

On the subject of young Ed Miliband he will be lucky if he lasts a year so do not pin your hopes on him his brother is already being lined up to take his place and as Ed has asked the Lib Dems to give him some idea's does that not tell you he will give you exactly what we are being given now with the Lin Con pact?

BTW I would like Ivanhoe to learn to speak for himself you regularly answer for him not really a good trait. 

I have respect for your views but you do insist that they are the correct views and do not seem to grasp that we all have our own views and really do not like yours being pushed down our throats

Caminito - I do agree with your posting and only hope that we do not finish up with Ed Miliband as a leader as the country will be doomed beyond repair if the labour boom bust gets in at the next election I think we should all be looking at packing our bags and moving out and let the unrestricted immigration finish off the country once and for all as labour has always had a death wish when it comes to the British people.

[caminito]

Will Red Ed want/try to change clause 4 back to it's original statement
The changing of Clause 4 has to be seen as the moment at which Old Labour became New Labour
So maybe Red Ed , Ivanhoe and Papa would like to see this reversal 
The economic crisis of the 1970s, and the defeats suffered by the trade union movement, as well as the decline in influence of the British Communist party, led to a strengthening of the position of Labour party members who were opposed to marxism.


The original version of Clause IV, drafted by Sidney Webb in November 1917 and adopted by the party in 1918, read, in part 4:

    To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service.

New version

The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party. It believes that by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than we achieve alone, so as to create for each of us the means to realise our true potential and for all of us a community in which power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many, not the few, where the rights we enjoy reflect the duties we owe, and where we live together, freely, in a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect.

[Papaumau]

Maybe you will change your mind after the Tories have had another go at damaging your life - just like many more of the "swingers" who jump political ship when they find they are eventually being abused by the incumbents - whoever that may be.

While I DO support left-of-centre middle-of-the-road politics I DO NOT support any extremism of any kind that I find coming from the left or the right.

Yes, I have already denounced the days of the too-powerful unions and I have already stated clearly in my writings that nationalisation for nationalisation-sake is wrong, just as privatisation for privatisation-sake is wrong, ( as Blair and his Tory buddies have practiced for years ), and that is why I say that the government that REALLY care about the people at EVERY level are the government that should be in charge of Britain.

Too many out-of-control ideologies on both the right AND the left can only finish up being damaging to the rights of individuals if these ideologies are supported by people who vote blindly and habitually without thought of the long-term consequences.

[Hugh]

Sorry after experiencing old and new labour Cameron going to find it very hard to make it worse for pensioners. Yes I am pretty sure the next couple of years we are going to suffer while hes sorting out the new labours mess.

Good afternoon Ivanhoe we know you are watching and Chris is still waiting

[Chrisjay]

Hi Papa

Your post has sound theory however no party in existence (which is what we have to live with) can meet your ideology as they all have their own agenda and it's usually self interest.

I also do not agree with you on vote switching like car insurance I check it out every time it is due for renewal and take the one I think offers me the best deal - I am not interested in students or child benefits only the party that possibly will deliver more of what I want for my money - I will never forgive labour for what they did to the private pensions whilst lining their own pockets with public sector pensions.

There is no such thing nowadays as long term consequences for switching votes can you honestly say you would have liked to have had Brown in for another term?  If people had not switched votes that is exactly what we would have had and I agree with Caminito we will have a couple of years of belt tightening but hopefully the country can pick itself up after that and start to prosper again.

Yes Camilito I am still waiting - I'll go to sleep at this rate

[caminito]

Hi Papa
Quote...
While I DO support left-of-centre middle-of-the-road politics

  Isn't that a contradiction in terms 

I am slightly right of centre in my political thinking BUT I supported MT fully for the first 4/5 years of her administration.
We needed a tough , focused leader to break  Scargill and the other mindless extreme left union agitators.
Anyone who pussy footed around would not of suceeded. They quickly realised that she was not to be messed with 

I was very nervous about Privatisation of the utilities , railways etc. BUT as the country had been left bankrupt by Callaghan there was no money in the pot for the government to plough into upgrading and servicing them. No choice then , the money had to come from other sources.
Must admit that I don't like so many falling into the hands of foreign companies now .That was why I was nervous in the first place.

It is always a damn waste of money and time when a new government unwinds or changes so much that the previous administration had put in place.
Even though NU Labour left or carried on mainly with the conservative policies ( unions , privitisation etc),  Immigration , benefits , banking etc need to be drastically revamped !

Quote..
Too many out-of-control ideologies on both the right AND the left can only finish up being damaging to the rights of individuals if these ideologies are supported by people who vote blindly and habitually without thought of the long-term consequences.


Hope that Red Ed , who is definately of the Wedgie Benn mould , does not lurch the Labour party to the extreme left .
Think maybe the party will turf him out pretty quickly and install his brother 


Quote..
 supported by people who vote blindly and habitually without thought of the long-term consequences.

I could say that that is a condescending remark 
Fortunately or unfortunately we are still a democracy and even if we do not agree with others , they are still able to cast their vote the way that they desire.





 

 

[Papaumau]

Hi Papa

Your post has sound theory however no party in existence (which is what we have to live with) can meet your ideology as they all have their own agenda and it's usually self interest.

I also do not agree with you on vote switching like car insurance I check it out every time it is due for renewal and take the one I think offers me the best deal - I am not interested in students or child benefits only the party that possibly will deliver more of what I want for my money - I will never forgive labour for what they did to the private pensions whilst lining their own pockets with public sector pensions.

There is no such thing nowadays as long term consequences for switching votes can you honestly say you would have liked to have had Brown in for another term?  If people had not switched votes that is exactly what we would have had and I agree with Caminito we will have a couple of years of belt tightening but hopefully the country can pick itself up after that and start to prosper again.

Yes Camilito I am still waiting - I'll go to sleep at this rate

Hi Chris and Caminito.....

Firstly, I think that we can all, if we are not too selfish, lay our vote where we think the best can come for everybody and not just oursleves. It is selfishness in politics that makes it so polarised when it comes to voting for what we may think as "the right bunch". I have found that the Thatcherist "me, me, me" mantra is not the way that decent and civilised human-beings should behave.

That is why I am slightly left of centre in my desires ( Yes it is possible to be "left of centre", Caminito, and be middle-of-the-road too without causing a paradox to be created there, as the term "middle-off-the-road" does not surmise that the very narrow line suggested by the phrase must always need to be followed precisely  ). I am willing to accept that your "right of centre" stance can be a mirror-image of mine to the left.

Finally, it is not condescending to say that some people DO vote "blindly and habitually" as many of the people who are stuck in their own political mud pile are unable to vote any other way than they have always voted.

If we were to get rid of these habitual voters and the selfish swing-voters too we may find that the ones that are left laying their little crosses are the ones that really do care about politics and the ones that put some profound thought into their actions at the ballot box.

Maybe I am looking for utopia here but I still feel that it is only the unselfish ones and the thoughtful ones that REALLY create the political parties and governments that they truly deserve. I try hard to be one of them. Which one of them are you ?

[Ivanhoe]

///////I was very nervous about Privatisation of the utilities , railways etc. BUT as the country had been left bankrupt by Callaghan there was no money in the pot for the government to plough into upgrading and servicing them.///////

Here we go again with the no money theory.

It so happens that privatisation of our Utlities cost more of tax payers money to uphold, than nationalisation.

The reason the right of the Tory party are so obsessed with privatisation, is because privatisation makes a profit, and becaus workers are made redundant and sacked under privatisation.

The reason the right wingers are against nationalisation is because nationalisation create jobs, and because when people are working they are consolidated, therefore they can strike.

[Papaumau]

Sorry Papa but Caminito sums up my views on old labour.

Let's think about "old Labour"

The term "Old Labour" was given as a derogatory term to the people who were said to be more socialist than progressive in the Labour party when Blair dragged Labour way across to the right in order to try to tempt a few wavering Tories to vote Labour. Strangely, it worked as Blair won two landslide elections with his New-Labour dogma.

After this small revolution in - not so - leftist politics Blair made the word "Socialist" into the word that should "not be spoken". Very soon it became obvious that this new Labour Party was not a party that particularly cared about the working classes and it quickly started to introduce many previous Tory ideals into it's political philosphy and the "old Labour" values became something that should be dropped and avoided like the plague.

Obviously this change in politics under Blair and Brown very soon became reviled too and at the recent general election we saw some of the "wavering" Tories going back to their comfort zone. Not all of them went back as the Lib/Tory coalition proved that the Tories still could not generate an outright majority. They had to go cap-in-hand to Clegg to manage to put together a working government. ( We will see in the not-too-distant-future if this idea worked or not ).

Now that the electorate are totally bamboozled and many do not know what or who to believe, or to believe in, we may find that some of the better and least-dogmatised of the old Labour ways of doing could come back into vogue.

In any situation, I do not think that it is a good idea to stigmatize the old Labour values by tarring ALL of them with the same stereotypical brush.