Labour Push State Pension Age to 68

[Ivanhoe]

Papaumau, I dont believe the Tories will ever form government again, and I believe that New right wing Labour will form government, but it will be a very low turn out, just like the Scottish recent bi-election result, 33 per cent turn out I think it was, and it might be a hung Parliament.

I dont believe we will ever see a left wing Socialist government ever again, who would lead it ?

[Papaumau]

That is exactly the reason why I have chosen "New-Socialism" as my national political wish for the country.

Sadly, because the swingometer always swings in two directions it is almost certain that it will now swing over to the true right again at the next GE.

I WILL admit that there is a possibility of a co-altion government this time round if enough people remember what the Tories got up to the last time they were in power.

It is also true that after years of two-party politics many of the voters out there have no idea where to lay their little crosses any more and many of them will allow apathy to rule their heads when the time comes.

Here is an interesting site that looks at this philosophy:

http://www.wired.com/culture/culturereviews/magazine/17-06/nep_newsocialism

Here is a book that examines the pros and cons of New-Socialism

http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/

What I am looking for out of New-Socialism is a THIRD WAY that can serve us all that controls the excesses of greed and that ensures that everybody is valued who works for a living. This should include the lowest worker on the shop floor right up to the fat-cat board members that head up successful entities.

Pro-rata everybody should get the rewards that they are due at every level and the powerful ones should have their power curtailed via strong legislation.

I know that this sounds like some kind of utopia but I see no reason why utopia should not be striven for if we all support the idea in principle.

[Wrinkles]

Sadly I think you are flogging a dead horse PaPa.
Dear old deluded Ivanhoe is incapable seeing the truth even if it jumped up and bit him. Just because Labour changed sides and, as he would have it, embraced Thatcherism. It is self evident that they are still Labour, but Ivanhoe's red tinted glasses don't/won't let him see beyond his own outdated and entrenched opinions.

[Ivanhoe]

""It is self evident that they are still Labour"".

How do you come to this conclusion wrinkles ?

[Papaumau]

Behind the deliberate "rightish" facade of the New-labourites there certainly is a core of true "Labour" supporters. Where do you think that "the rebels" come from that have given the rightists such a hard time over the past few terms in government.

Sadly Blair was clever enough to steer the old Labourites the way that he wanted them to go in order to make them electable again but that flash-in-the-pan is now over and done with. Now that the polls are showing a resurgence of true Labour interest and the Tories have been reduced to a 6% lead - seen in a recent Ipsos/MORI poll - a hung parliament next year is on the cards.

[Ivanhoe]

I dont bother with polls, I go with my own reasoned thinking, and as such I believe we could have a hung parliament at the next GE, but we wont have another Tory government.

Also I see no evidence that Labour rebels are making their mark, and even less that Gordon Brown is listening to them.

New Labour are a party without manifesto or ideoligy, they are merely watered down Thatcherism, and Gordon Brown is an unelected leader.

British politics is in  mess because people have no choice between the the Tories and New Labour both being right wing.

[Wrinkles]

""It is self evident that they are still Labour"".

How do you come to this conclusion wrinkles ?

If it looks like a duck, if it sounds like a duck, if it walks like a duck and it behaves like a duck then the chances are pretty good that IS a duck.

However as you rely on your "Reasoned thinking" then you would probably conclude it's a racehorse.
I've said before I will no longer argue the point with you as a constructive debate is not possible with someone as blinkered as you. Stay there, if you must, with your head up your backside refusing to believe the truth of the matter. But secure in your imaginary little world where The red flag will rise again and smite the pretenders and all will be well as Labour once more rule the world.
How very sad you are

[Papaumau]

I dont bother with polls, I go with my own reasoned thinking, and as such I believe we could have a hung parliament at the next GE, but we wont have another Tory government.

Also I see no evidence that Labour rebels are making their mark, and even less that Gordon Brown is listening to them.

New Labour are a party without manifesto or ideoligy, they are merely watered down Thatcherism, and Gordon Brown is an unelected leader.

British politics is in  mess because people have no choice between the the Tories and New Labour both being right wing.

Reading that I can see how the good folks here have their knives in your back !

If you HAD watched what has happened in government over the past few terms you would have seen "the rebels" directing and steering policy. Many times the government has been close to defeat because of rebel actions and each time they have saved themselves from defeat by making concessions to these rebellious back-benchers. If you cannot see them doing what they do you will not know about them.

New-Labour's manifesto got them re-elected to three terms of power and even if they did not live up to a lot of their promises, ( typical politics ), they kept getting those landslide victories on the strength of those promises.

[Ivanhoe]

""If you HAD watched what has happened in government over the past few terms you would have seen "the rebels" directing and steering policy. Many times the government has been close to defeat because of rebel actions and each time they have saved themselves from defeat by making concessions to these rebellious back-benchers. If you cannot see them doing what they do you will not know about them"".

Yes I know all that.  Its all part of the pomp', but it dont mean zilch.

[Dic]

Just out of interest concerning this futile argument: New Labour have now been in power for over twelve years. They took over from an extreme Tory party who introduced a stream of anti working class legislation. New Labour have since then enacted a record number of new laws and statutes. Can anyone out there tell me how much of these new laws involve repealing or annulling Thatcher's pet projects. I would anticipate quite a long list... or maybe not.

[Dic]

"If you HAD watched what has happened in government over the past few terms you would have seen "the rebels" directing and steering policy. Many times the government has been close to defeat because of rebel actions and each time they have saved themselves from defeat by making concessions to these rebellious back-benchers. If you cannot see them doing what they do you will not know about them."

No one has the chance to vote for a party "rebel". The choice we have is for Labour lobby fodder or Tory lobber fodder. The only untried one is Libdem lobby fodder. Worth a shot as the other two have proved completely unrepresentative of the electorate at large.

[Papaumau]

Hi Dic....you raise a couple of good points there !

1). It is true that New-Labour did not repeal very many if any of the previous Tory laws as Blair dragged New-Labour right over to the right when he formed up his new vison of politics. This has meant that not only has New-Labour not rejigged any previous Tory work but they have actually done many things that Thatcher would have been terrified event to try.

2). While we cannot "vote" for what a rebel of any hue might do once in we should know what our representatives stand for before we send them into power. It is STILL a fact that once in power many back-benchers who are too outspoken to ever get cabinet positions will vote via there consciences even against three-line-whips and it is these back-benchers that actually help to form policy.

Sadly any government that gets in with a large majority will be able to push through the pet policies of the cabinet and the loss of a few rebel votes often does not make any difference to the direction of this kind of a government. That is why a government of just a few of a majority are more at the behest of the party rebels than any strong government might be.

The next government  - of whatever hue - might be like this if it is not actually a co-alition government. It will be interesting to see how the swingometer swings this time round.

[avalonmpk]

Come off it!
How many of you out there started work at 14 and worked a 48 hour week.
We paid our income tax and little bit later on national Insurance.
We also paid Stafford Cripps pernicious purchase tax at anything up to 30%.
To pay in the equivalent amount today we would have to work 72 years and 4 months

[Papaumau]

Come off it!
How many of you out there started work at 14 and worked a 48 hour week.
We paid our income tax and little bit later on national Insurance.
We also paid Stafford Cripps pernicious purchase tax at anything up to 30%.
To pay in the equivalent amount today we would have to work 72 years and 4 months

I started work at 16 years of age and as an apprenctice joiner I commenced to work a 42 hour week for about a fiver a week.

I seldom go back to these "good-ole-days" as it is a dangerous thing to do to harp back to the "halcion" days of yore. 

I do know that every country now charges some kind of national insurance that has a welfare state and every country charges income tax.

Equally every country that I know of charges some kind of purchase tax on top of the direct taxes. Curiously we have also recently had our "stealth" taxes growing disproportionately instead of our direct taxes being raised as raising direct taxes is seen as a vote killer for any/all of the parties.

I have always said, ( ignoring the traps that government hacks lay for us ), that the state pension should be set at a percentage of GDP and that when they are considering raising it these raises should be connected to the average wage and not to the questionable inflation rate, ( that is wide open for many fiddles ).

When people have worked all of their lives and paid all of the taxes required of them they should be able to DEMAND that their state pension is fair and equitable and is similar to the rate that is available in Europe. It is not and I do not accept all of the whinging that we get thrown at us when we ask for a decent and poverty-free state pension.

Private pensions and occupational pensions are something different altogether !

[Ivanhoe]

 Papaumau, Well put.