France

[Thesheriff]

Hugh,

Judging by the number of Spanish OAP's dining out on Al La Carte Menus that we see every time we visit a place just for a drink  - YES it Does. Trying to quiz them though about their level of Pension & they do not want to talk about it in general.

As regards Papas question on  Direct Taxation yes it is higher than in the UK for example :-

Whereas a Self Employed person in the UK would get over a year { unless that has now altered } to trade before submitting accounts - which would determine their Tax & Nat Insurance payments.  

Here is Spain there  is a minimum payment to be made of just over € 300 per month from Day  1 regardless of whether the business is going to be a success or not and regardless of whether any profits will be made in year 1 or not.

This is after partaking in the laborious & Costly ' Paper Chase ' involved to start the Business in the first place - and having done all that most ' Newbies ' will open the business - only to find on a visit by the Police or Guardia possibly many months later - they are Trading Illegally - because having obtained permission to start a Business up - they did not know & therefore did not apply for permission to Trade - the two permissions being entirely separate from each other.

Also an employer has to pay the same amount of Nat Insurance for any employee that works more than 20 hours a week - that is why there are 1,000's working in many different Bars - every day of the week - but doing less than 20 hours in each one  or they work in one on the Black Economy - until discovered.

Anyone who is a worker or paying into the system has to pay in for 15 years before they are entitled to a pension - and if a ' Brit ' does join the system he can draw at retirement both his UK Pension & a Spanish pension at whatever levels his contribution bought him. This should be brought in immediately in the UK it would save Millions each and every year.

One other little thing which is a money earner if enforced - and I have read in the papers of where it has been - Holiday makers come out and see in all the ' Playa Shops '  Fishing rods - and after a few days just lounging around Dad make be talked into buying one by his Son - for something to do - and of they go fishing from the Beach or Pier.

No one will ever tell them you need a Licence to do this - and the maximum fine for not having a licence is € 6,000 - this could make it the most expensive & last holiday they will ever have in Spain.  

Lots of Taxes in the form of Driving Fines are also collected by the Guardia  on unsuspecting visitors - either in their own or hired Cars.

All Cars are required by Law to carry Hi-Viz jackets & two Warning Triangles in case of breakdowns - most hire Cars do not have these - do not inform the hirer - and it is  the Driver gets fined if stopped at a roadside check - not the Car owner.

If the driver cannot prove that he is a Full Time resident of Spain - he will still get time to pay the fine imposed which is paid to the Guardia - he gets the time it takes to get the Cash out of his pocket - If he has not got the cash - the Car will be immobilised ie. Keys taken - while he is driven to the nearest Cash Point to withdraw the Cash - and if neither of these is an option - he will  be escorted to the nearest jail until the Fine is paid by someone - not his Family just him - they will have to sort themselves out.

There is no relaxing of these rules and it has been reported of single Women drivers - driving Cars at night - which still have UK Plates - being stopped at a road block  - the Traffico Guardia have access to the DVLA  24/7 by computer in their Cars  - and if the Car shows has not having current Road Tax / Ins / Mot  in the UK it is impounded immediately - not a fine imposed, that will be done later  -  they are just taken  out of the Car & told to make their own way home any way they can.

If your Car is in Spain for more than 6 months & you live here permanently  - it should be changed to Spanish Plates or exchanged for a Spanish car - but there are many who due to what was a lax system up to a year ago ie. No way of the Guardia checking - used their English Reg cars with no UK  Tax / Ins Etc and also no Spanish Tax / Ins Etc -

This was another thing they thought it was great to ' get away with ' another way of making living in Spain cheaper - until they were caught - and then it became ' Spain picking on the Brits ' myself I have no sympathy for them - they knew they were on dodgy ground.

Yes  Dottie - the Pensionistas  out here are looked after better than in the UK.   But they are not all referred to as the 3rd Age  only those who have joined the 3rd Age organisations - just the same as in the UK.

[Deetta]

TheSherrif, well, you are] doing a very good promotional job of reasons to live in Spain, if one is an OAP.    Why then are so many OAP's who have moved to Spain so keen to get back here?   

The same applies to France, where I lived for five years after retiring.  When I first went to France, many Brits were moving out there, all desperate to experience this 'good life' that the TV programmes told us we would have (we all soon discovered that, generally speaking, this 'good life' the tv programmes talked about, was an illusion).   Five years later the same Brits I had met at first, were all, like me, trying to get back to the UK, and all leaving as fast as they could to return to live the UK.   Just a few left there now that I know of who are all  trying to sell their French properties so they can get back 'home'.  France is an expensive place to live now, and most pensioners  pay 'top-up' health insurance fees, as it really isn't all free.

Of course being an expat will suit some, but in France the Brits all kept together, a sort of self support system, as life can be more difficult in France than it is in the UK, and if you end up with a broken leg in your French rural property down an obscure country lane (which looked so good at first, and 'look at all the land we've got' sort of place) it's not the French who come to help you along, it was always the Brits.   I often felt we were merely tolerated by many of the French population, mostly because we all poured so much money into the 'do it yourself' shops (some of which are closing down now as so many Brits have left France) and also because we paid top dollar for falling down French ruins.

I can understand why certain aspects of retiring to Spain are so good, the weather for one, and how cheap it is to eat out.   So its lovely when you find somewhere where you really feel at home, so whilst I'm not really knocking being an expat anywhere, you really have to do your homework first, and renting for at least a year, in your chosen country, seems like the best option.

[Papaumau]

Thanks for that Sheriff !

Deetta....

Nice to read your stuff again !

Although it might look to you that many ex-pat Brits are clamouring to get back to Britain - for whatever reasons - I think that there are many more net emigrants than there are returns.

As Sheriff already said, costs are getting higher in Spain and this is no doubt forcing many emigrants into coming back home even if most of them will make this decision after the first few weeks or months in Spain - or France, or even Italy. Those that truly feel comfortable in Spain or France or Italy will adopt that country as their own and will then get all of the benefits that are there while putting up with the few drawbacks that are bound to be there also.

[Thesheriff]

Detta,

I think you will find that many of those returned will fall into a couple of Categories and no doubt Dottie will be able to add to and also disagree to some of my  views.

1.       Many have returned because they could not cope with the hassle and problems of suddenly finding their dream had gone ' Belly Up ' and the Property they had purchased in good faith - suddenly turned out to be an illegal build - and as things stood at the time it would be years or even never before it would be legalised and connected to the Mains Services. Some could not cope with that and returned - whereas others have decided to stick it out and for the last 8 years have been fighting their case.

2.       Some who came out under retirement age and bought properties - found themselves unable to get work when the ' Nest Egg '  they brought out with them got to very low levels.

3.       Others who for one reason or another decided not to join the Spanish Health Service have found their trips back to the UK were now becoming so frequent it was more economical to return there to live.

We enjoy living out here because maybe it's because we seem to be the opposite of everything you state in your posting.

I personally as I have stated previously have no desire to return to the UK at all - we have only been back for one week in 12 years - and on our return here said ' Never Again '  - It is my intention to Die in Spain - and this next month should give me an idea as to whether that will be sooner or later - I hope later ?  My Wife has already decided that when she does become a Widow she  will stay here until her health start to cause problems  - then she will return to live with our Son.

We never ever considered France as a choice to retire to - to my view it was not much different from the UK as regards the weather & it was just as expensive - if not more expensive to live there than the UK - We do have friends in France though who really enjoy it there - maybe them being the only English couple in their village has something to do with that    - So our choice was simple -  Spain on the Weather  & Economy  points.

Our health Service { Spanish } is free to us - as there is a reciprocal agreement with the UK - but unlike the UK if a Doctor / Specialist  decides you need a certain treatment - you get it - it is not dependant on the Post Code of the area you live.

When I came out of hospital in 2009 after a long bad ' do'  it was our Spanish friends that were  first on the scene to see how I was doing and if my Wife did need help - this was because being out in the wilds they  were nearest - whereas the English friends did not know I was home until my Wife phoned them.

Actually what you describe ' All the Brits being together ' was the last thing we came out to Spain for - our first house was supposed to be only 1 of 8 on the outskirts of  a Spanish village when we bought it { another Lying Builder } we moved out when the estate got to 150 and was still growing - every day getting more and more like Coronation Street - The English Estate is now bigger than the Village which is all wrong.

We sold and moved to a plot where we built our own house - this piece of Land was at that time  15 mins drive from the nearest property occupied by an English family and 5 mins from the nearest owned by a Spanish family.

We never felt just Tolerated by the Spanish because we were just the opposite from what you describe - we went out of our way in both places where we lived to get accepted by the Spanish of the nearest villages - and we did - we used to get in both places -  hand delivered invites to all the village functions and community socials etc.

Also if you read my other postings - another opposite to your posting that we did - which I would not recommend for every one - we decided to retire to Spain in 2000 - never having been abroad for 20 years & never having been to Spain for 25 years - we got off the Ferry at Santander in May 2000 with a caravan in tow - and had no idea where we were going from there - apart from the Sth Coast of Spain - and we have never looked back since.

Maybe it's our outlook on being an Ex-pat that is wrong - I only know it has worked for us & also for many others of our friends - Who although did not come blind as we did - came with the intention of living amongst the Spanish and not in places you could call ' Little Britain with Sun '  these people seem like us contented.

The people who seem to struggle most and not able to cope well - are the ones which stay aloof from the Spanish & do not try to integrate at all - only go to English organised functions and entertainment - and are constantly moaning because the system is not like it is in England.

[Deetta]

Sherriff, thanks for your very lengthy reply.  I can only say how lovely that you found your comfortable niche in retirement, but remember, people should never say never, because a lot of us Brits in France said 'we'll never go back to the UK' but look at us all, here we are, and pleased to be here. 

I don't think that people trying to live in other countries can be 'categorised' (as you put it)anyhow, we are all so different, and all looking for different things.  We tried very hard to integrate in France, joining in with all the village fetes, the twinning groups, the 'needing to learn French' groups, inviting the locals to our bbq's, shopping in the local shops, going out of our way to be helpful and nice to everyone,  eventually you realise that however long you stay  in France, (at least where I was) you will still be a 'foreigner'.   Perhaps I was just unlucky in the region.   I lived in Italy for a long time, and found the opposite, the Italians were very different, but then the national character is different.  Plus having lived in Africa and the Middle East and various other places, and having enjoyed those places hugely, all for different reasons, I am used to 'fitting in' and getting along with the locals, and  I am certainly not a 'moaner' nor were my friends in France, it was more that eventually our affection for our mother country was a lot stronger than our feelings for the country we had hoped to retire to, plus the boredom of the long winters with nothing at all going on, and nowhere to go.   

Apart from anything else, I never considered Spain, though I know it is a beautiful country,  I just don't think I could cope with the cruelty of bull fighting which is so popular in Spain, or the general cruelty to animals (same in France) so that would make Spain a no-no for me on that count alone, though I know that there are groups now in Spain trying to ban bull fighting.

Did anyone notice on the recent news, that the numbers of Brits leaving the UK to settle elsewhere is getting less now, for the first time in years, more are coming back than are leaving, but of course I guess that will include immigrants coming here perhaps.

You go to great descriptive lengths to justify your love of Spain and the Spanish people, which just shows us how much affection you have for your chosen country, and that is really nice.   So here's to wishing you all the best, you have found your 'home' there. They say 'home is where the heart is' so you definitely belong in Spain. I hope all goes well for you in the next month.

[Dottie1943]

TheSheriff and Deetta

What a wonderful exchange of experiences and words, if there was somebody reading this thread who was considering moving to either France or Spain they would be able to see what is good and bad in both countries and also where the pitfalls are as well.

Roy and I did live in Spain for twelve years and loved every minuet of the experience and we did think that this was going to be our forever home, but I always did say as well " never say never" and twelve years down the road, we came back.

I think that the majority of people who do return have A) not done their homework prior to selling up lock stock and barrel and arrive after having a two week holiday with mum and dad or aunty and uncle and thought I could live here!  Or B) are missing the family, this is the biggest magnet for the more senior amongst us.

Personally, I never really came under either category the MAIN reason we came back was because of Roys health and mine to a lesser extent, and would either of us be able to cope without the others help.  Roy because he could not drive anymore and mine because gas bottles (just one example) were too heavy for me to haul about in and out of cars etc. Yes I missed my family but I could have handled that it was definitely the every days chores I was not sure I could handle on my own in Spain.

UK is definitely for me and his lordship, but I really enjoyed my Spainish life as well and wish all of my friends good luck for the future.

[Deetta]

So true, Dottie, and I always think if you learn something from your experiences, good or bad, then its been worthwhile.

But I still don't think you can categorise expat Brits, as we all are off on adventure looking for different things.

[Thesheriff]

Detta,

You have in your last post mentioned another point which I personally disapprove of - What you refer to as Bull Fighting only the Brits give it this name it's correct name is the Corrida.

Catalonia has just held it's last Corrida - because it has been banned in Catalonia from Jan 1st 2012 - by the new Party in Power - this was only done in most peoples opinion as yet another snub to Spain - because Catalonia regards itself as a separate country and does everything it can to cause issues between themselves and Spain.

The ban was not declared as part of their manifesto before the Elections - it was only slipped in later when they were in power - as a referendum - and as usual with referendums -  supporters turn out en-masse while  opponents always think there will be enough opposition for them personally not to bother.  

Most political analysts think this decision will be overturned along with the current party at the next elections.

My overall view is that if the Corrida is to be made a referendum issue in the rest of Spain  { which I very much doubt as the Government has just recently declared the Corrida as being part of Spain's  National Heritage } voting should only be allowed by Spanish Nationals - then and only then will the true feeling of the Spanish be heard - it is their country we are just residents and as such should not be allowed to influence decisions such as this.

My personal view on the Corrida is that I wish the seats were not so hard - I now take a cushion along with my Food & Drinks.  

[Deetta]

Sherriff, long reply again,  could you concentrate your replies into a shortened version as I do not have time or the inclination to plough through your every word (I'm a bit surprised you use up so much time spelling everything out in such detail for forum members).  Apart from that, yes, of course, I and many others know (and have known  for decades) that the correct term for bullfighting is 'corrida' but as you wish to split hairs regarding words we forum members use I will go along with it.  This forum speaks usually in relaxed informal mode, and I didn't realise I had to use the politically correct words for every darn thing.   

So I didn't really seek an explanation of what is going on with bull fighting, I read the news too.  I merely think that anyone who can sit and watch an innocent bull being cruelly slaughtered to the sound of cheering, and for amusement, needs their head examining.  So the fact that you mention the chairs might be hard, and that you need a cushion whilst you watch, is meaningless to people like me.

[caminito]

I'm with you Deeta . Awful excuse for torturing animals !
It's great when a bull manages score a "bullseye" !

[Deetta]

Caminito, love the picture, wish times like that would happen more often, perhaps the Spanish toreadors would soon stop their bullfighting (or 'corridas') if it did.

[stevepas]

I think what helps france is that they get alot more back from the eu pot than we do,
at last report I think we are second behind germany for amount of money put in the pot and not returned via grants etc.

Blair removed the rebate aswell which might mean there is more money for France.

I also read somewhere that we subsidise french electricity consumers via EDF.

I need to find the links to confirm.

(EDF also own our advanced gas cooled nuclear reactors.)

As someone mentioned wars earlier, not having a 5 wars Blair saves a fortune and 1 war Cameron.
(Blair-yugoslavia, sierra leone, iraq 98 and 03, afghanistan)
Iraq is a favourite, the prequel (major), the 2nd prequel (Blair bombing 98), and the big one (blair again)

'Flipped his house how many times? Ed Balls' thought Iraq, the big one would cost the same as Iraq the prequel, 2.5 billion and take 6 months.
Actual costs were 149 soldiers lives, 8.4 billion and 6 years.
So the 'special advisor' to the chancellor gordon brown hadn't thought of possible inflation between 91 and 2003 !
ft link about the balls-up (you might have to register to view)
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c3e50026-8e99-11de-87d0-00144feabdc0.html