British Companies Using Tax Havens

[Angelo]

A recent report published relates that of the top 100 FTSE companies 98 have companies in low or no tax countries.
Of these the Major Banks, HSBC,Barclays,Lloyds, & RBS have 1649 companies in tax havens.
The majour advertising company WPP have 611. and tops the list.

Now before anyone says that they can do what they like with their money. Or that it is perfectly legal. Note this.
a) It is not thier money they are spending, it is tax which is due to our country.( which could be used to make our country better, Pensions to name but one example).
b) One has to ask where do they make their money. ( UK ?).
c) Who does this benefit ?
d) Just who is bailing these companies out ?
e) Is this moral ?

Over to you Guys !

[stevepas]

Good post,

Correct me if I'm wrong I thought RBS was about 80% owned by tax-payers?

So if that bank is avoiding tax then they won't be anything to bail them out next time.

There is quite a lot of anger in the states at the mo directed at Wall Street and the banking system, a group called 'Occupy Wall Street' and its getting rather sizable I don't watch the news much but some have said its not got much air-time over here.

I'm surprised that banks have any problems they should be making a fortune on all that money they are loaning.
Aren't the Greeks are having to pay about 20% at the mo on their debt.

According to the CIA factbook we have almost 9 trillion in external debt (2010 figures) https://www.cia.gov/...r/2079rank.html

This next link brilliantly explains how a monstrous debt can be built, its another unbelievable clip, in this case it shows how the federal reserve (not owned by the us gov) loan dollars to them with an instant debt of interest attached.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dmPchuXIXQ
Woodrow Wilson signed the federal reserve act which gave them the power to control the dollar and charge interest, and he sooooo regretted it afterwards.

There are some very strange things going on with the banking system and money.
The Federal Reserve has apparently 'lost' 9 trillion dollars,
yes I haven't spelt it wrong it is trillions.
Here is an truly bizarre astonishing clip but by no means the only one!!
I've got loads!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYNVNhB-m0o&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLC0AFC2FE54AEFA2E

I'm sure I read somewhere that  there is a small handful of nations that don't operate this way (brazil I think is one).

Now I'm getting a head of steam!

With all that money in the system/pumped into the system and we are told to tighten our already super tight belts it must be concentrating somewhere in the hands of a small group of people. If they won't release it we need a new currency.....
.....A new sterling (no interest charged on issuance) where you can only exchange a maximum of (old banker destroyed sterling) £500 pr uk citizen a week that way most sensible down to earth people get proper money and leave the bankers with the balance of the old banker destroyed sterling as they seem to be rather keen on having it all!

If a banker complains about having only £500 per week then they need to downsize their castle or sell their fleet of ferraris or if you are an mp sell your moat to the water board. 

Perhaps the bankers need the money because they are down to their last 40 ton of caviar?

[Angelo]

Oh one I forgot to mention is  the Philip Green empire. Which includes some of our High street names.
Mr Green made his wife a citizen of the Cayman Islands, he then put all his busieness in her name, thereby avoiding all UK taxes.
Should we still be buying tings from his shops ?

[Papaumau]

OH, where are guys like you hiding when we are looking for straight-thinking and honest governments and corporations ?

I think that such ideas - while obviously fair and equitable - are just not the rules that big money and big corporations work under; They are forced by the ever-present profit motive to always grow at a certain rate that allows them to skim off the billions or trillions that they are able to take off and then hide in off-shore tax haven accounts.

That reason is why I think that the Tobin Tax Initiative should have been put in place many years ago, as if governments do not have the power or even the inclination to grab the tax lost in these "havens" then the Tobin Tax would ensure that a tiny percentage of every money-transaction that was made world-wide would add up to many trillions of "Dollars" ? that could be put to good use feeding and medicating the third world and bringing civilisation to these blighted countries. This fund could also be used as a guarantee fund for any reckless bank that went bankrupt like many did during the recent crash.

The European Union has tried to bring in a Europe-wide form of this tax but sadly the British government under David cameron is attempting to veto it.

[Angelo]

Thank you Papa, what they always seem to  forget is that employees are shareholders also citizens !
You may also have noticed that whenever they have tried to put such things into practice as the Tobin Inniciative, there are the AMERICANS (Avaricious People) vetoing it !
Without them on board it doesn't move.

[Papaumau]

Yes Angelo...The only way that the Tobin Tax could be forced upon the world would be if a few enlightened countries - or states - like the EU did apply it, as then the other countries would have to do it too or lose out in the benefits that would come of this tax going world-wide.

The great thing about the Tobin Tax is that it is only a tiny levy, ( about 0.1 percent ), on every electronic financial transactiuon that takes place all around the world and that tiny levy would have no actual effect on the "richness" of the people that would apply it.

I know that nobody likes new taxes but this one is one that will not actually be laid as another burden on the normal taxpayers of the world as it would be laid automatically on any and every transaction that takes place when money is moved around. 

[Angelo]

It would be nice to see that come about, The buying and selling on the stock exchange ( a gambeling establishment  )  is believe it or not mostly done by computers ! trillions of deals are done daily. So the overall revenue is substatial.
I expect someone somewhere makes a living on each transaction. I know of one big company who supply the software to enable this, who charge per transaction. There would be wouldn't there . So there is the reason it is not universaly acccepted.
But what we need is a strong goverment (some hopes) to go ahead with it.

[Papaumau]

Yes Angelo and that train of thought leads us to ask: Where does all of this money go ?

I mean, if we stop for a second and count up all of the currency that is flowing around the world at any moment in time we would not have numbers big enough to illustrate it.

As this money does flow around the world every country that is moving it seems to lose a lot of it so that they are always seeming to be just fighting off bankruptcy. That money MUST be going somewhere but I can tell you right now that it is not going into the pockets of the great mass of the world's population.

If only some of the strong governments that you speak of had the courage we might FIND this money and tax it properly so that this massive world-wide wealth might be shared around much more equitably in the future.

[Angelo]

Good gracious Papa sounds a lot like socialism ! Or as Uncle Sam would say Commie ! and perhaps for that reason it will never be. ( what ! sharing & equal  what are we thinking of ) ?
Every time we seem to have sorted the world out, there is always a spanner thrown in the works ! Only serves to reinforce my pessamistic nature.

[Papaumau]

Yes Anglos, well spotted ! It is in fact based on a Marxist argument that if the world's wealth was even slightly better distributed the super-rich would STILL be super-rich but the super-poor would be a lot better off.

I know that modern Capitalism does not allow for such ideas to flourish as the ones that have the money are allowed to hang on to almost all of it by their well-controlled governments and the important ME, ME, ME, culture is the one that manages to over-rule any other consideration that might be out there.

With this thought in mind we also have to watch the resistance movements that are building in power right around the world as the anti-globalists take to the streets in their millions. I am sure that eventually these pople will throw such a "spanner" into the works, ( thanks  ), that the once-powerful Capitalistic culture that has previously reigned is now being broken down as we speak.

Don't get me wrong Angelo, as I am NOT a Communist; I just feel that because of the blatant and endemic unfairnesses that are abroad these days many of the ordinary people are now questioning the rules that we are forced to live within as the rich keep getting richer and the poor - even in the developed-world countries now - continue to get even poorer.

Something in this situation needs to give and I think that it will happen very soon.

[David G]

No problem with being a socialist or even a communist, but if I have to be one, can I be a socialist or communist millionaire please as it beats the hell out of being a socialist or communist worker. That well known socialist millionaire Mr T Blair seeks to be doing okay out of it.

I think the place some are looking for is called Utopia, and here's some news, it doesn't exist, there will always be those who want and have more than others, always has been, always will be.

To the wealthier on this Forum, I'd be more than happy to pool our finances and divide it equally between us, any offers?


 

[Angelo]

Couldn't put my sentiments better Pappa.
Marks was out by about 2500 years though.
A Greek, cant remember his name less spell it,  ( yes them again) said that if all the money was collected and everybody got an equal share then all would be well fed, clothed and cared for.
Utopia, bus as David G points out, an impossibility. But lets face it we are not asking for that, just a little more humanity from us humans. Just enough for us all to live, is that too little to ask ?
Lest remember that all the religions of the world, preach this !! But none of us live up to it, even after how many thousand years. Just when do we start moving forward ??

I think you last line is Prophetic Pappa.

[Papaumau]

Hi again David and Angelo....

And yes, while it is very true that Communism HAS failed miserably simply because it was the same human-nature, with all of the associated flaws that are attached to these people, that we also see in Capitalism, we really cannot expect any "utopia" that might be possible so long as selfish homo-sapiens are running the show.

THAT, friends, is why we are lucky in the West to have democracy with which to temper all of the excesses of the far right and the far left and it is why and how we can bring some reason to governmental abuses if we so desire. 

One final point David G: Tony Blair was never any kind of a Socialist as during the term he was in charge he dragged the Labour Party, and government, screaming and kicking right over to the right. In fact, if you noticed, during his terms of office the word "Socialism" was a word that was never to be used and as far as he was concerned it had become just another swear-word.

[Angelo]

Yes Papa, we are lucky to have democracy, just look at some of the countries in the news recentlly.
But we need to be vigalant and defend it with our lives, it is so fragile. People like Blair disscredit and weaken it, so we must be carefull ! Complacency is our bigest danger. Corruption is their tool.
I have great faith in human nature and think that when the going gets tough we will see the action needed. Hopefully the right person as well.

[David G]

Papaumau. Blair certainly claimed he was a socialist, but to my mind most politicians will say anything as long as it pays well, regardless of what they say about the salary they could make if they took a job outside politics, and that old line about if you pay peanuts you get monkeys, but if the pay was doubled the same monkeys would be the ones standing for and becoming MPs because the whole thing is an old boys / girls club.

http://www.nextleft.org/2010/11/i-am-socialist-says-new-labour-leader.html

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/columnists/sue-carroll/2010/06/15/cherie-and-tony-blair-s-socialism-in-action-115875-22333704/