democracy in europe

[caminito]

Lack of democratic accountability risks an eventual, and possibly extreme, populist backlash. Far from unifying Europe, the euro threatens eventual Balkanisation.
The single currency is exacting a heavy toll among Europe’s political leaders. The virtual suspension of the democratic process that euro membership seems increasingly to demand should be viewed with alarm. Legitimacy, it appears, is expendable; the single currency is not. From the start, the march to European unification has always implied an erosion of sovereignty. But we seem to be reaching the point where the diktats of a small policy elite vastly outweigh the decisions of national parliaments.
A particularly unhealthy development is the emergence of the “Frankfurt Group”, a shadowy collection of senior policymakers, to drive through the measures thought necessary to save the euro. Its reported make-up – Angela Merkel, Christine Lagarde, Nicolas Sarkozy, Mario Draghi, José Manuel Barroso, Jean-Claude Juncker, Herman van Rompuy and Olli Rehn, Nothing any of them has done to date has succeeded in stemming the crisis. On the contrary, their actions have often made matters worse

European leaders will redraft key treaties to ensure that beleaguered economies cannot borrow or spend too much in future as a condition of receiving billions of euros in rescue packages.
However, the treaty changes will involve a transfer of sovereignty, triggering an Irish referendum. The Irish vote, to be proposed at a European Union summit next month, will increase demands in Britain for a popular vote on Europe, setting off calls for referendums across Europe in countries such as Holland, Finland and France.
The UK Government fears the pace of developments in Europe, including the imposition of "technocrat governments" in Greece and Italy, combined with a German demand for treaty change, will make a campaign for an EU referendum unstoppable.

[xetog]

Great, lets have a reforendum tomorrow!  Of course what will happen is that we will vote no and be forced to have another reforendum and another and another etc until we vote the way these tyrants want.  I have always argued that the EU is a completely undemocratic organisation who wish only to give power to an unelected "elite" who will then suck the life blood out of our national coffers and identity.  Get rid of them and when there is a real democratic system in place I might just reconsider my opinions.  Germany doesn't want to pay anymore, France pays in, but gets more out and the rest just cost us money.  Lets save our £4bn net contribution and spend it on educating our kids and building up our industries and let the rest go hang!!!
M.

[Papaumau]

I always worry that referenda will be used to just allow the informed hard-liners to get us so annoyed that although we ourselves are not all that "informed" we will vote along instinctive or even dogmatised party-lines.

I do not think that that is any way to govern any country, as after all we have originally elected "them" ( who are supposed to be au-fait with all of the complex ins and outs of such matters ), to take our decisions for us.

Yes, there are times when only a referendum will make a decision that the whole country can speak on and be educated about but sadly many times that referenda are used the people who vote in them have no real clue about what they are voting for or against.

While referenda ARE a correct tool of democracy I don't think - for the reasons stated above - that they are a good way to make very complex decisions when we - the ordinary people - are just not up to that particular job.

[Oldtimer]

Referendums can often be a knee jerk reaction to an immediate problem.
That people could regret when they see the real enormity of it afterwards.
The answer is good government which we have seen very little of.
It takes a brave poloticion these days to stand against the Press and Public opinion  and also the Gnomes who run the country behind the scenes.
I still think this is a wartime situation and we need a true coalition from whatever party to take the serious descions necessary to save our country.
We survived WW2 not with all the right descions but some brave ones when we stood alone.
We helped (what ever the US say) to save Europe with tremendous sacrifice by our military and civilians.
Would Europe turn its back on us now and if so we may have to stand alone again?

[Papaumau]

Well said OldTimer !

It is quite sad that we cannot find a government that will spend as much time looking after all of us as they do looking after their super-rich pals.

You may actually be quite prophetic about that as things are getting so bad in general now that we may soon find ourselves on a similar footing to actually being in a world war again.

If the globalists are not stopped in their tracks it is going to be us against them in the not too distant future.

[Rita Postlethwaite]

You have voiced my very own fear Papa.

[Papaumau]

Yes Rita, it is a sad state of affairs when the fabric of society breaks down and the anarchists are the ones that are at risk of taking over !

Why I say that is because every time decent people get onto the streets to protest peacefully these protests are always hi-jacked by the anarchists and the destroyers.

I cannot imagine what is next for Britain when we see what is happening on the streets right around the world in the name of protest against the corporate globalists.

[lets-be-heard]

As someone said earlier the problem with referenda is that the outcome may not be the one you want. What then? Do you accept the results or do you demand a further vote. I feel that there are essentially two types of voters in this country. There are those that have no idea what they are voting for and those who believe what they read in the papers. The only thing that you can reasonable safely count on is the papers getting the date right.
What bothers me is the thought of what would happen to us if we were to withdraw from the EU, especially as virtually every region is coalescing into trading blocks. But we have the Commonwealth some say. Yes, but do not forget that the largest economies would be India and Pakistan. Now there's a thought.

[Oldtimer]

I have lost a full page using Spellcheck?

[Papaumau]

As someone said earlier the problem with referenda is that the outcome may not be the one you want. What then? Do you accept the results or do you demand a further vote. I feel that there are essentially two types of voters in this country. There are those that have no idea what they are voting for and those who believe what they read in the papers. The only thing that you can reasonable safely count on is the papers getting the date right.
What bothers me is the thought of what would happen to us if we were to withdraw from the EU, especially as virtually every region is coalescing into trading blocks. But we have the Commonwealth some say. Yes, but do not forget that the largest economies would be India and Pakistan. Now there's a thought.

Hi lets-be-heard...Good to hear from you.

I agree that there are only very few times when any country should go to referenda to solve problems or to get the "true" wishes of the people.

Not only do we see what you have already said but we also see referenda being voted on by political activists - who usually have an axe to grind - or by people who are not really fully educated about the potential result of any referendum.

Even if, say, only a  third of the population actually vote and then just over a half of them win it then that means that the so-called democratic decision has actually been made by just one sixth of the population. That means that the other five-sixths - by their own fault or the rules of referenda - do not necessarily get what they might want.

I believe that that is why we elect our political representatives to make these decisions for us.

[lets-be-heard]

While a referendum can be seen by some as an invaluable tool in the armoury of democracy, I see it in a different light. Perhaps I am a synic but to me a referendum is suggested when politicians (who need to win a majority of votes in order to retain their well paid jobs) are afraid to make a decision. A referendum takes the heat off them. They can then say, "Don't complain, you all decided and we are only following the wishes of our constituents". Regarding democracy in Europe, You can't formulate the rules or change the rules unless you are in the club. Take the Euro for example. because of our reluctance to be at the centre of the game and our continuance in washing our hands, why complain when we are affected and have no influence. 

[Papaumau]

That's amazing Lets-be-heard....it is almost as if I said that !

Mind you, I think that the popular hatred and jingoism that feeds the knee-jerk reactions of the Euro-haters does not say what needs to be said in all educated and well-informed debate.

The terrible pressure that past governments have been put under by the xenophobes in the hard right of the Tory party or in the UKIP party has meant that the only way that any middle-of-the-road government is going to get out of that situation of being caught between a rock and a hard place could be ameliorated is by a referendum on the subject.

That does not mean that the result of any such referendum would be the settled will of a majority of the people of Britain.

[caminito]

The German government wants Greece to cede sovereignty over tax and spending decisions to a eurozone “budget commissioner” to secure a second €130bn bail-out, according to a copy of the proposal obtained by the Financial Times.
 
 In what would amount to an extraordinary extension of European Union control over a member state, the new commissioner would have the power to veto budget decisions taken by the Greek government if they were not in line with targets set by international lenders. The new administrator, appointed by other eurozone finance ministers, would take responsibility for overseeing “all major blocks of expenditure” by the Greek government.
 
 “Budget consolidation has to be put under a strict steering and control system,” the proposal reads. “Given the disappointing compliance so far, Greece has to accept shifting budgetary sovereignty to the European level for a certain period of time.”
 
 Athens would also be forced to adopt a law permanently committing state revenues to debt service “first and foremost”.
 
 The German plan, circulated on Friday afternoon to finance ministry officials from eurozone countries who make up the so-called “euro working group”, underscores the depths of mistrust between Greece and its European Union lenders.
 

[Oldtimer]

To seceded sovereignty to a German Administrater would be a bitter pill to swallow for Greeks or any other European country.
Who do the Germans think they are (It seems to me that we have had this argument about Sovereignty with Germany Twice before another Master Plan) in recent years.

They have always misjudged their authority over other country's and if the Greeks should accept this now who is next?

I cannot see the Greek people who have long memories accepting such a situation.

[Dottie1943]

I wonder if the Greek people will have a sayin this new proposal or will it just be the politicians who decide either way they are in for some really stormy times now, this could cause the first European Tsunami.

If Greece accept, the next would or could be Italy then Spain, interesting times lay ahead I fear and not nice times, once a president is set then the rest of the countries will have no say in the matter and they would have been the ones to have voted for their own demise