Why should we stay in the EEC?

[Papaumau]

"Vive_la_différence" Said the Frenchman and those of us that like variety cheered in support !

[Oldtimer]

Papa
You cannot ignore the past it is a part of every brits Heritage.
Rather than ignore it we should learn from it.
There is a marked different between country's as the recent spat with Argentina's bluffing shows.
It is all to stir up local politics and the Brits will not stand for it.
They complain about our defences and yet they where the ones that illegally invaded the Islands.
The french part in itat the time  was a bit dubious and now the South Americans want to support the Argentinians who's claim To soverienty  has increased since oil has been discovered.
 

[granny bee]

It does seem odd that we are prepared to warmonger over the Falklands because of its 'Britishness' and yet any form of nationalistic pride expressed here in the UK is seen by many as racist!  Why can't the Falklanders integrate and practice some much acclaimed multiculturalism with Argentina as we here in the UK have had to do with people from all over the world?    

[Dottie1943]

Why oh why will the Argentinians not listen to those people who actually live in the Faulklands, they are all saying that they want to be part of Britain NOT Argentina, surely they can understand that!

If they are so determined to JUST own an island and NOT it's people that live live there and have done so all of their lives why don't they try to build trust and rather than distrust between the Faulklanders and Argentinians that may help at a later date, although I doubt it!

The question has to be asked if ever we gave them the island, what would they do with the island?

[caminito]

oil , oil , oil !

[Papaumau]

While it is very true that the discovery of oil has raised this ownership subject again recently I don't think it was oil that caused the strife the last time.

Argentina under the military junta that ruled at the time rightly or wrongly invaded the island for their own reasons and our buddy Thatcher felt that going to war with Argentina was the right thing to do.

When one considers that we no longer have an empire any more and how almost all of our ownership of far-off lands has been given back to the indigenous peoples I cannot see how a political solution to this problem cannot be found.

[caminito]

Back to the EU

"Of 278 deputies present, 199 voted for, and 74 against," Parliament speaker Philippos Petsalnikos said, with the vote coming after nine hours of heated debate.
Over 40 rebels from the coalition parties who voted against the bill were immediately ousted from their posts. This followed the five ministers who resigned on Friday in protest over the austerity measures which include 15,000 public-sector job cuts, a lowering of the minimum wage by 20 percent to €600 a month, pension cuts, privatisations and the liberalisation of labour laws.
But the sense of injustice over more austerity measures hitting the worst off spilled over in several Greek cities, including Thessaloniki where some 20,000 people took to the streets, as well as the islands of Corfu and Crete.
Tens of thousands of protesters clashed with police before the parliament in Syntagma Square, with buildings set ablaze and over 80 people injured.
Trade unionists, nationalists, communists, students, retired people were among those denouncing the "EU-IMF blackmail", many of them equipped with gas masks to resist the tear gas used by riot police. German flags were also burnt in protest as what is seen as a Berlin-prescribed austerity package for Greece.
 
Support for their cause came also from the US multi-billionaire George Soros who criticised Germany's austerity drive. "I admire Chancellor Angela Merkel for her strong leadership," he told Der Spiegel, "but unfortunately she is leading Europe in the wrong direction."

[Oldtimer]

For the first time on this Forum I am lost for words.
The Greek populace will only be able to retire at 100 YOA.
There will be hundreds of lost youngster roaming the streets forever.
And the country could be reffered to OXFAM.
The Miilions of Euros they hope to receive will only pay off the BANKS debts.
What a life of misery they have to look forward to.

[xetog]

The shame is that if Greece had been allowed to depart the Euro zone 2 years ago, when the crisis really bit, there could have been an orderly return to the Drachma with suffering of the Greek people held to a minimum.  Now, a disorderly bankruptcy looms with penury the only outcome for years ahead.  This is what happens when democracy is put on the back burner.  Greece should never have been let in to the Euro anyway (same for all the PIIGS), but in a grandiose scheme to please the Germans, rules were bent (broken in many cases) and now the chickens are coming home to roost.  The only country to have really benefitted is Germany (with France hanging on to their coat tails), because it has meant that the 'one size fits all' Euro has masked the real value of the Mark.  If the Euro falls, the German economy may well go along with it as the Mark would have to be revived at a hugely greater value than the Euro making German goods far less competitive, allowing other manufacturing countries (such as the UK) back into the market.  The only real benefit of the Euro has been to allow the expansion of the German economy and they will do anything to stop it failing, even making Europe a totalitarian state.
M.
P.S.  Before anyone starts shouting xenophobia again, I actually admire the Germans for their industry and perspicacity.

[caminito]

Well said guys.
 Only the euro luvvies ,who cling to this disaster called the eurozone , think that imposing this non democratic stranglehold on Greece is the answer.
Politics NOT economics !
There is not a hope of Greece growing its way back to debt sustainability while still in the euro..
  No business can survive in such an environment. Not until Greece devalues, and Greek assets start to look reasonable value once more, will the money return.
 Yet instead, Greece has chosen the internal devaluation route, or the forced reduction in wage and asset prices necessary to restore competitiveness. Does anyone other than the technocrats and the Germans really think such a road possible?

[avalonmpk2]

With the reference to the Imperial systems of measurement and calculus: These variegated and multi based systems is what gave Britain the lead in the world and brought about the industrial revolution and increased the standard education. We were innovative and lead the world. Metrication has reduced our living standards by 10%  and devalued our money by A factor of 2.4!
 We switch to decimal and our children have to be retaught everything that is not in the base ten which is the equivalent of two years education. Our factories and offices have a mixture of metric and imperial electrics and plumbing. Any repairs are a nightmare for the younger generation. I remember the really good old days going off on a school coach to a rugby matchand the maths teacher asking how much 17 tuppenny ha'penny stamps? and everyone taking part. First with correct answer got the extra bun!

[Papaumau]

The people that I feel sorry for - who seem to have been forgotten here - are the people who live, or struggle to live, at street-level in many of the countries of the EU while they are being pounded by austerity-measure after austerity-measure during this crisis.

It is ALWAYS the ordinary folk that have to pick up the bill for the recklessness and stupidity of the people at the top of government and in the boardrooms of the banks and institutions.

All, not some, of the problems that are being faced by Greece and Italy and Portugal and some of the lesser members of the EU, have been brought about by the powerful and supposedly-expert leaders of the institutions misusing the money that they were given via the investors and the taxpayers - ON THE GROUND - in those countries.

I, for one, can easily understand why the ordinary people of Greece are taking to the streets and rioting when they are being squeezed over and over again by the government that got them all into this situation in the first place.

For once this is not about a for or an against the EU or the Euro in principle, it is about how this currency, this entity and it's people are handled by the ones that are given the democratic power to use it or abuse it.

As one who is not hard down on something that might be alien to me just because I do not understand it, I feel that there is nothing wrong in the EU or the Euro that can not be put right by those that are open-minded enough to be able and willing to try to fix it rather than just instinctively damning it to destruction.

If David Cameron and his chancellor had the nous or the courage or even the desire to help to fix what is wrong in the EU they could be right at the heart of it like Sarkozy and Merkel are, doing just that, but instead they are - under pressure from the Euro-haters - in the Tory party running and hiding like the cowards they really are.

[lets-be-heard]

Having read through the list of postings, I find myself concerned, to say the least, regarding many of the comments and the mixing of political levels. Many have commented on the moneys we pay to be in the EU. Remember that, after the war,whilst we were members of various European political unions, we refused to be a founder member of the EEC, we did however try to save face when we decided to join EFTA, allowing others in the fledgling EEC set the tariffs and now, we have the audacity to complain.
Someone commented that much of the money we now pay in, goes to poorer areas, so it does, places like the Hebrides etc. Would we have spent the money on these areas directly ourselves? I doubt it.
Someone else commented that we are subjected to all manner of political intrusions. We are, but don't we have representatives placed on the Commission or in Parliament. Do we think that these rules emanating from these bodies just apply to us
Regarding the Court of Human Rights. Before ludicrous complaints explode upon the screen in reply, remember we are a founder member in the whole raft of rights that we all enjoy. This HR concept, if I am correct, was introduced after the hideous excesses of the last war. I wonder if we had been "united" in 1939, whether we would have marched to war so readily.
A final observation. Yes, we have been a global power, but now. I would re-quantify that to being a power. As the world is congealing into a series of trading blocs would the American Pacific Bloc, China, India. and the EU (that we have ditched) treat us as equals or as a hinderence. The latter I assume.
A final final observation, How can anyone stress that politicians can not be believed yet look to news papers, any news papers and give them a degree of credibility.
May the European experiment be successful and pray to God that we are part of it.
Peace to you all, but please be a little less Anglocentric, it is very short sighted.

[Oldtimer]

My comments where to only express concern for the ordinairy people of Greece?

[Rita Postlethwaite]

I am with you there Oldtimer. We should ALL hang our heads and weep for them. One day it may be this countries people who are facing the deprivations that the ordinary Greeks are suffering.