This is what Blair, Brown, Prescott, and Harman stated before the 1997 G/E.

[Ivanhoe]

What delutions do I have of "New" Labour ?

[Wrinkles]

I didn't say anything about New labour. I said "Delusions of Labour". Anyway New labour was/is old labour in a camouflage jacket. The only thing new about them was the new depths they would sink to in the their cheating, lying and deceit, other than that it was business as usual, if it moves tax it, if it doesn't move fine it, then tax it. Count up the money and create a ministry of daft ideas, half baked initiatives, ill thought out laws and give them the money to waste. 

[Ivanhoe]

The trouble with "New" Labour is that they came into power in 1997 continuing the fundamental policies of the Tory government they replaced.

Traditional Labour of tax and spend for services rendered were unelectable from 1979 to 1997, so New Labour replaced them.

In my view it's the British people who are the biggest problem in this country, because we want our services fully funded and up and ruinning, but we are'nt prepared to pay for them, ie any hint of income tax increases from any political party is a no go from the British, so again in my view, we do get the politicians and the country we deserve.

[Ivanhoe]

Beware of what ?

[Wrinkles]

I'm sorry Ivanhoe old bean but you really do need a new script writer, you keep repeating yourself.
True the Labour party, in their new clothes did take on a lot of the Tory policies but have you stopped to think why that was? Could it have been that if they campaigned on their own policies they wouldn't have had a cat in hells chance of securing the vote? Once in government they tinkered with those policies, warped and twisted them out of all recognition, whilst under the surface they were back to their old ways. Lying, cheating and obfuscation being the norm.
Now, as your arguments fail, you are blaming the public? I suppose that in some way the public is to blame primarily because we have a tradition of relatively honest Politicians (as honest as is possible within the definition of politician) The poor British public, however sceptical, had a tendency to believe them because they were used to them being, in general, honest. Labour plumbed new depths by turning deceit and corruption into an art form, The grinning clown being the maestro.
You will be telling us next that you believe the Human rights act was accepted because it was crucial for the national good, rather than the true reason, as a direct benefit to the legal profession and in particular the human rights law firms, the largest of which just happened to have money grabbing Cherie as one of it's top mouthpieces. I could go on but it would be futile for I know that there are none as blind as those who don't wish to see. Specsavers will be of no use to you as you are far beyond their help.

[Ivanhoe]

Wrinkles, thank for you for the "old bean" bit, I find that rather flattering for some inexplicable reason.

Yes, traditional Labour were unelectable for 18 years, hence Kinnock moving old Labour to the right, with poor old John Smith dying, and Anthony Blair being elected to lead the New Labour party into goverrnment, and sticking to right wing monetarism from day one under the "New" Labour government banner.

Unscrupulous ?, of course they are, but werent the Tories in government the same .

Blame the British ?.

I believe greed took hold of the British during the 80's with apathy playing it's part, but then I also believe we never have been political thinkers, unlike the European populas who are.

Whilst as far as human right are concerned, at grass roots level we have left that far behind with a rich and poor devide, including millions of pensioners living in poverty, and countless thousands maybe millions living on the streets.

[Wrinkles]

You keep repeating yourself, We know labour were unelectable for 18 years, what you can't seem to grasp is why. They were labour, they thought labour, they did labour things, they broadcast their Labour policies and quite rightly the British public wanted nothing to do with them. They knew what it would mean. In the Thatcher years the public realised that all their hard earned money didn't necessarily have to go to the government coffers where it would be spent foolishly.
What were labour to do? Become turncoats within the façade of "New" lie, deceive and be, as you put it unscrupulous, until they could snatch the prize. Yes they continued with the Tory policies why? because they worked, until they started to tweak and fiddle with them. There is an old saying "If it aint broke then don't fix it" sadly for labour it got lost in translation and became "If it aint broke fix it 'til it is"
It was all downhill from there

[Wrinkles]

What, No reply to that then ? Does that mean I win this round? 

[Hells Granny]

OK, My turn.

Successive Governments have taken advantage of the apathy of the British Voter for decades. Unfortunately, it is often the non-voters who make the loudest complaints.

IMO, none of the political parties could govern us well right now, mostly they spend their time picking holes in the policies of the previous administration. That is no way to run a country. I think they are all as bad as each other. Watching the parliamentary Channel is like a particularly bad farce, set in a run-down public school (think St Trinians for politicians!)

Our Glorious leaders (whichever bunch is in charge) wriggle like worms on a hook as soon as we try to call them to account, or to answer questions. They totally fail to see that the populace is sick of it. Politicians wander around in a beautiful dream of Fading Empire, not noticing those who freeze or starve to death each winter.

I would like to see voting being made compulsory, as it is in Australia. Then perhaps our 'errant schoolkid' politicians  would see the brown stuff rapidly approaching the fan.

Cheers, Hell's Granny

[Wrinkles]

I like your style Granny, and yes I agree voting should be compulsory, enough people have suffered and died to give us the right to vote, so why not use it.
Sadly I see a major problem with that in that large tranche of the latest crop of voters would have great difficulty in finding the polling station, unless it was next to the dole office or the off license. As for working out what to do with the voting slip, well, they certainly wouldn't write on it as that is not a skill they possess, due to successive governments tinkering with the education system.
The thought was there but unless they did a compulsory GCSE in all schools on how to vote, and it should be possible as they don't seem to teach anything else, then we are screwed

[Ivanhoe]

""next to the dole office"".  I see you dissaprove of the unemployed.

[Wrinkles]

Ibanjo! For goodness sake! There you go again, putting words into my mouth. You really are getting tiresome. I don't disapprove of the unemployed per se, two and three quarter million are too many to disapprove of. I do however disapprove of the lazy unemployed and there is a subtle difference.
I further disapprove of the lazy uneducated, (due to their own recalcitrance), and the lazy teaching professionals who allowed them to be so. I also disapprove of a good many other things which I won't list for fear I provoke your fury. The consequences of that could cause you to blow a gasket and we wouldn't want that now would we?

[Ivanhoe]

Nobody likes wrong doers, including £60,000 a year MP's who rip off the tax payers a darn site more than some poor bugger on the dole, "get my meaning" ?

[Wrinkles]

Is this a first, I ask myself? I agree Ivanhoe, however The amount being ripped off by MPs is a mere drop in the ocean in comparison to the rip off's by benefit claimants.
A small number, relatively, of large fiddles is nothing in comparison to the huge number of small benefit fiddles.
I don't condone either but whilst MPs have been caught with their fingers in the till they will be required to make token reparation. The odd benefit claimant however if caught will be fined, a token amount and told to pay back the fiddled money at 50p per week because they are on benefit and can't afford more. The 56" plasma TV, the new car and the several thousand in the bank will not be seized as payment. That would be a "Uman rights" issue. 

[Ivanhoe]

Wrinkles, What you clearly fail to understand is that the monetarist free market low "income tax" system we have had in this counry since the 80's needs high unemployment among the masses to work.

Why do you think the Thatcher government deliberately created over 3 million unemployed during her term of office ?, dont you recall the right hon Norman Lamont saying it was a price worth paying ?

Right wing monetarist government's need to control the economy, and the only way they can do this is via controlling the people, because when you are on the dole, you are hardlly likely to strike.