Is Brown starting to look a bit better ?

[Ivanhoe]

I could not agree more with that.

But what you are talking about is the consequence of the free market that has been in operation since the 80's, and it has been an irresponsible free market.

And your right again, no politicial party has the guts to stand and be counted, because they would be shouted down.

So, what is the solution ?

[Papaumau]

At risk of  being seen standing on my soap box once again I have to suggest that the "third way" is now the only way we have left.

Without getting bogged down with party politics I believe that it is time that the two-party system was given a fright so that these "nest featherers" quickly find out that their seats are not safe and - as we say in Scotland - "thur jaikets are hingin oan shoogly hooks".

As soon as the politicians stop feeling that their big money and their big expenses can no longer be taken for granted I am sure that this will concentrate their minds on doing the job that they are elected to do.

This should start with the Liberal Democrats getting a shot at the job of governing Britain with a solid influx of people like me from New-Socialism, ( not to be confused with New-Labourism ), so that government gets back to doing the job that looks after the weak and leaves the strong to get on with what they are best at - under tight regulation.

[Wrinkles]

I have to agree, once again with your idea of a major shake up to the two party system, but the Liberals? would it have to be the Liberals? Think what you are saying.  In opposition maybe but in government? Within weeks we would have little men with clip boards telling us that we were to be fined for not tending the bottom of our gardens and making them a suitable habitat for the fairy population, You would only be able to use a car if it was pulled by a horse or a pair of llamas. My leather armchair would be confiscated and I would be charged with crimes against animaldom.

I think I'd rather have UKIP 

[Papaumau]

Yes Wrinkles, of course you are dead right that if the Liberal Democrats get into the mix that would only create a THREE party system.

While I do not necessarily agree with all of the Liberal dogma I do think that if they were strong enough to even generate a hung parliament the encumbents might get the shock of their lives.

I do not think that any of the single-issue parties would have enough supporters to even start to break down the control of the big two.

In Germany - for example - The Greens are a powerful fighting force  but here in Britain we are far too easily tied to the old dogmas to make that kind of a transition. Maybe in twenty years or so or when climate change really starts to bite and low-lying countries are flooded by ice-melt and severe weather patterns harden our minds to the damage that is being done to our environment in the name of Mammon, we in Britain might start to support these Greens too.

I cannot think of any other group that might take the place of the failed parties of the past, can you ?

[Ivanhoe]

Papaumau, I agree.

[Papaumau]

Thanks Ivanhoe !

As there are plenty of free-thinkers here I was wondering if any of THEM might have a vison for the future that might not include the failed New-Labourites or the also-failed Tories ?

It will certainly take "vision" and radicality to produce a modern government for Britain that is not based around how much these elected ones can personally make out of the deal.

Before a person might want to be a politician they should be well aware that doing that job is not a way to feather ones nest or to impress powerful people for their future machinations.

To start with, the upper house should be properly reformed so that disgraced people like Peter Mandelson or Michael Martin should not have a £360.00 a day bolt-hole to go to in The Lords after being rejected by The Commons.   

[Ivanhoe]

Papaumau, My honest opinion of Britain is that we are finished as a civilsed country, because the Thatcher/Major years, but initially Thatcher, started greed off and we've never looked back due to New Labour continuing where Thatcher left off.

And sadly and unfortunately we dont stand together in this country which makes things worse.

[Papaumau]

I cannot wholly agree that Thatcher made us all "greedy" as greed is a  basically inherent quality of all Homo Sapiens. She just made it respectable among some to be and act like that.

If you remember - as I am sure you do - that she is infamous for saying that "greed is good" and that "there is no such thing as Society" and if we are to let thinkers like this back in we will only get what we deserve.

Anyone that is actually considering voting for The Tories next time round must keep in mind that even with Cameron being the acceptable face of Toryism there are still a large number of Thatcherites behind him who are working his strings.

This is one leopard that WILL NOT change it's spots no matter how plausible they might look on the face of it.

[Ivanhoe]

Papaumau, Again brilliantly observed.

[radar41]

I cannot wholly agree that Thatcher made us all "greedy" as greed is a  basically inherent quality of all Homo Sapiens. She just made it respectable among some to be and act like that.

If you remember - as I am sure you do - that she is infamous for saying that "greed is good" and that "there is no such thing as Society" and if we are to let thinkers like this back in we will only get what we deserve.

Anyone that is actually considering voting for The Toreis next time round must keep in mind that even with Cameron being the acceptable face of Toryism there are still a large number of Thatcherites behind him who are working his strings.

This is one leopard that WILL NOT change it's spots no matter how plausible they might look on the face of it.

But according to ivanhoe we have had those kind of people in power since Nu Labour came to power.

You and ivanhoe appear to believe there is some kind of socialist utopia awating us all out there. Well perhaps you can enlighten me as to when socialism has actually delivered equality for all.

[Papaumau]

Radar41 said:

But according to ivanhoe we have had those kind of people in power since Nu Labour came to power.

You and ivanhoe appear to believe there is some kind of socialist utopia awating us all out there. Well perhaps you can enlighten me as to when socialism has actually delivered equality for all.

I said somewhere else here that I would not respond to you again but that seems to be an almost reasonable question to try to answer:

Ivanhoe is right that New-Labour stole a lot of the Tories clothes so as to make them electable again all those years ago and Blair in particular was responsible for dragging "Labour" to the right in this manner AND losing it's way in the process.

If you have been watching what the New-Labourites have been doing in the past years you will see many policies that even Thatcher would have been afraid to try. This is the price that the country had to pay for getting the Tories out last time round.

Now, as I have said in many places and many times before, "there is not the thinkness of a ritzla paper between this New-Labour government and past Tory ones".

As far as "Socialism" is concerned we often find people jumping to the conclusion that Socialism actually means Communism, but nothing could be further from the truth.

Modern New-Socialism, ( not to be confused with New-Labourism or even Communism ), is a direction that allows for the open markets of Capitalism but which ensures that such wealth-creating systems do not encroach on the rights of the individuals and which protect the weak from the excesses of the strong.

Some might say that this "New-Socialism" is something quite like "Old-Labourism" and while that might be true in some cases it does not include the old Labour dogma of "them and us" and it gives everybody a fair crack of the whip.

Here is one example of this new way of thinking:

http://www.wired.com/culture/culturereviews/magazine/17-06/nep_newsocialism

If you are interested to learn more about this radical new way of politics then just pop the words "New Socialism" into http://www.google.co.uk

Be aware though that this term HAS been hijacked by some people wishing to put a respectable face on failed old Communism.

[Ivanhoe]

Papaumau, Again a brilliant observation.

[Wrinkles]

In my opinion there is only one way that we can ever recover and that is by way of a military coup, who's first act would be to raze the MOD to the ground along with the armchair army within, then sack all the denizens of the commons and lords.
The new rulers could then do away with all the nit picking bureaucracy, human rights miscarriages and set about sorting out the country. The banks and other financial institutions would be brought to heel. After ten years the country would be back on the straight and narrow, the EU a distant memory and proper politicians would have evolved in time for a return to democracy under the watchful eyes of the military.


Unless, of course, anyone has a better idea 

[Ivanhoe]

What we need is to be fully in Europe, adopting their social and economic policies.

[Papaumau]

My dream is for a fully integrated federal United States of Europe with Britain being at the heart of the power in this federation.

The "little Englander" mentality stops us from thinking this way or even looking at the big picture and I cannot see any way out of this in the near future.

Very soon, the world is going to be split into half a dozen powerful trading blocs and Britain - on it's own - is not going to be one of them.