The Lisbon Treaty

[John]

I suppose they want the poodle so they can teach it some new tricks.

A lair and a cheat with blood on his paws.

I am sure he still thinks he is fooling the many.

It is the few that are being fooled.

[Ivanhoe]

Im afraid to say that you're not giving very constructive reasons. 

Albeit that ide like to wipe that smug smile of Blair's face myself, and for different reasons to you probably.

[Wrinkles]

Ivanhoe is voicing his opinions in a country that is known for free speech.

Is it, Try going to parliament square and reciting the names of soldiers killed in  Iraq or Afgastlystan. A relatively innocuous pastime but See how quick a dozen plods throw you into a police van.
Or try standing on a public platform and denouncing the government's policy on immigration and see how fast the thought police slap a racial abuse charge on you. You could have gone to Gordons love in last week and heckled him and it would have been a matter of seconds before the cuffs were on.
Free speech my Anus. The only free speech allowed these days is if it doesn't conflict with the party line.

Back to the topic, The EU. Any one with an ounce of common sense will see that there once was a superstate of similar proportions to the EU. It was a mish mash of disparate countries bound together into one huge conglomerate. This one was ruled by a dictator and an iron fist. It failed (Stalin & The USSR for the uneducated) as will the EU as it becomes more and more bureaucratic, socialist
and unaccountable. One size does not fit all, never can and never will. You can not rule from the centre if you don't know what's going on at the edges. The Treaty is a waste of time. Anyone who has read it, and there are very few who have will tell you it is virtually word for word the constitution. The Irish got some concessions and they will last until the constitution is fully ratified, then they will be ignored.

[Ivanhoe]

I know what you say, and I know we are fast losing any free speech we ever had, even programmes like Question Time are orchestrated.  We are now a right wing one party state.  But we in general have always been known for our free speech, it was a general statement.

Ive been to london in protests with pensioners, ive seen all that you say.

Ive carried banners and people have walked by saying "good for you", but have they offered to help ?, no they have not.

I will have to beg to differe about the EU, im pro- European as far as their Social Charter is concerned because I agree with what the EU Social Charter stands for.

[Wrinkles]

The social charter is one thing and I suppose somewhat acceptable however the constitution oops sorry treaty is another and anyone with half a brain can see there will be winners and losers, Guess which we will be?

If you are Pro Europe purely on the basis of the charter then you are in for a big disappointment.

[Ivanhoe]

""If you are Pro Europe purely on the basis of the charter then you are in for a big disappointment""

Please explain how ?

[Wrinkles]

I think I'd rather let it be a surprise. 

Further, if I tried to explain it to you, you would argue, quote the party line, blame Mrs T, and accuse me of being at a stupid level which you won't come down to  and generally refuse to be swayed from your credo of absolutism.


anyway I don't have my fishing rod with me

[Ivanhoe]

Okay.

[Papaumau]

Back to the topic a bit.....

I see that there is only one country, ( member-state in Europe ), that has not ratified the Lisbon treaty after Poland signed it a couple of days ago.

Yes, I know that we haven't had a referendum on this "consitution" and a few other countries have ratified it without recourse to a referendum but I am sure that when everybody actually understands what this very modified tome is all about it will be ratified by all of the member states.

It was interesting to see Ireland having two bites at the cherry before they voted yes and while many will say that there never should have been a second vote taken in Ireland the way it eventually went just showed that the Irish now believe that it is far better to be in than out of Europe.

( Boy, are the Tories going to have a field day with this one once they are back in power ! ).

Now that the pound is valued at one Euro per one pound there is no reason for us not to join the EMU any more, don't you think ?

[Ivanhoe]

Papaumau, I honestly do not think that Cameron's Tories will get anywhere near a general election victory, New Labour will win, im sure of it.

Re-the EU and the recent vote by the Irish on the Lisbon Treatry.  I have been trying to find out about the Treaty in respect of The European Social Charter, ie is the S/C included in the Treaty.?

I ask this because the Lisbon Treaty is a revamp of Tony Blair's constitution when he held Presidency of the EU in 2005, and which was voted "no" by the French and the Dutch because it threw out the Social Charter.

Tony Blair's 2005 constitution was introduced to EU countries in the hope that they would ditch their long held social model re- the Social Charter, and come over to our Angled Saxon Thatcherite free market model.

[Wrinkles]

The fact that the pound is equal to the euro is even more reason for us not to join it. If we are going to join, and I'm afraid that seems inevitable, then we should at least join at a reasonable rate, as it was up to a few months back ie circa 66p = 1 euro.
If we join at parity we will be condemning ourselves to a long long period of artificially high prices on top of the inevitable rip off that will take place during the change over.

As for Ivanhoe and "I honestly do not think that Cameron's Tories will get anywhere near a general election victory, New Labour will win, im sure of it."
I wonder if I could get some of that medication he's on? It must be very nice to be able to fly away with the fairies now and then.

[Papaumau]

While I am obviously a Socialist - of some kind - I do not support the way that New-Labour has lurched to the right in an attempt to sway previous Tory-voters to their camp. ( which Blair successfully did manage BTW ), so I am unlikely to think that as the incumbent government is an ersatz Tory government anyway it should not be hard for these floating voters to stay in their comfort zone and vote Tory again.

Sadly, the values of the LABOUR movement have been thrown aside for the open-market and the dog-eat dog market of the capitalists and It will be some time before this famous swingometer ever swings back towards these caring-sharing values again.

Money talks and power talks and all of the politicians of the day are seduced by these selfish and  thoughtless ways of living.

Maybe in another few years of Tory abuse the electorate will once again remember what it was like when people did think of others and at that time maybe the Liberal Democrats will get a shot at the job.  

[Ivanhoe]

Papaumau, Excellent, I could not have put that better myself.

[Papaumau]

For those of you that are interested in what the Lisbon treaty hopes to achieve I would not recommend trying to read it all due to it being 147 pages long.

Another choice is to be able to get the "bones" of this treaty by looking at a simplified version.

Here is one link that does this: http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/index_en.htm

To avoid ignorance on this matter and to also avoid responses that are based on knee-jerk reactions and prejudice this piece of European legislation has to be fully understood before any decisions can be made about it that are not driven by political dogma.

If the link that I have already supplied does not give you the information that you all might need so as to be informed it is easy to simply pop the words "The Lisbon Treaty" into http://www.google.co.uk and pick your own links to read.

There is one there that is supplied by the Telegraph but like anything else political, the Telegraph, ( which is tightly connected to the Tory Party ), has a bias when  publishing points about this treaty.

Ireland made the mistake first time round of not really trying to understand the wording of this massive document and that is how and why it delivered a knee-jerk "NO" at first referendum.

This time around they appeared to know what side their bread is buttered on....and voted a democratic "YES".

[Ivanhoe]

Papaumau, It has always been my view that we should be fully in Europe, but I also know it wont happen because of the outdated victorian dogmas of the two main parties, because I know the Lib-Dems will never make government.