A serious subject for all pensioners......

[Papaumau]

As many people are very uncomfortable with the subject I am about to raise I will not blame anybody for not responding to this thread....BUT...this is a subject that is always out there and that is going to come to a head for all of us that survive, sooner or later.

Pre-amble finished....

As an athiest I have always tried to solve the problem of what happens to us when we become old and sick and a burden on our familes and on the state and not being bogged down by any religious hangups I have always considered that in any civilised country the people who are in that situation should be able to decide about their own final deliverance.

I know that many people think about this as part of the religious framework that they have been brought up with and who am I to dare to try to deny them that right....BUT...equally, I see no reason why any religious group should deny any individual the right to be able to make that decision using their own conscience and nothing else.

The subject of voluntary euthanasia, ( as separated from forced euthanasia - which is always wrong ), is something that sensible and level-headed people should not be afraid to discuss and I am sure that if all of the possible pitfalls that are attached to this subject are worked out before-hand I see no reason why this idea should not become a possibility in the future of Britain.

What say you ?

[Papaumau]

I DID say that this subject is one that will be difficult to discuss but with all difficult topics they improve and don't get so bad once they have been.

Surely some of you here have an opinion on this subject ?

[Hells Granny]

I agree with the Living Will concept.

If I were suffering from an incurable condition, I would make my wishes known in writing about when to turn the machines off. That isn't life, it's living death and I don't want to be artificially kept alive.

Cheers, Hell's Granny

[Papaumau]

Hi HG...it's nice to talk to you over here !

Yes, both me and my wife have taken out living wills and this gives the medics a good guide as to what we want in such difficult circumstances.

Very few of us would want to lie in a permanent vegetative state ( PVS ) but if we have not already given clear guidlines here the doctors will always go that way unless they are told not to.

The sad thing is that living wills are not recognised as legal documents and all that they do is let the people who need it know what our wishes are. If family want to over-ride living wills they can.

I am asking to take this to another level where the people are able to say when and how they are to die if they are of the opinion that they are ready to go and they do not want to be a burden on anybody any longer.

Of course, if this was to be passed through the statute books there would have to be many safeguards in place to protect such people from making ill-informed decisions or to stop people trying just to get rid of relatives so they can get their hands on their money.

There is a strong upswell of pressure from many different organisations to allow this subject to go to a referendum but the powerful churches are trying hard to deny the people of Britain this choice.

Here is one of those organisations who have a very healthy and unbiased view of this and other connected subjects:

http://www.humanism.org.uk/home

[Wrinkles]

Being of the same or similar religious persuasion as PaPa I too am free of the assorted hangups. When I go, chuck the remains on a fire in a hole whatever, I don't and won't care, I'll be gone.
However the manner of my going is of more concern. I've seen far to many old folk clinging to life, unable to do anything for themselves. My mother in law, a fit, active, fiercely proud and independent, 85 year old, suffered a massive stroke which left her alive, just, and with very limited movement or mental capacity(?) she had to be nursed night and day which would have been the ultimate indignity for this woman.
Having know her for many years I know what she would have wanted and, sadly for us, mercifully for her she only survived for a matter of weeks. The living will and my families knowledge of my wishes will I hope ensure I don't go through that.
Voluntary euthanasia? fine by me, just so long as the appropriate safeguards are there. We put animals down to relieve their suffering, yet allow our loved ones to linger on, sometimes for years in extreme discomfort so there has to be a case for "pulling the plug" also, although again with appropriate safeguards.

[Papaumau]

Yes Wrinkles..it appears that we are singing from the same hymn-sheet here...ahem !

I find it totally wrong that we are quickly prepared to put animals down when they are suffering but we do not allow this for humans....WHY NOT ?

Religion...ALL religion...is self perpetuating right around the world simply because these religions ensure that they do not die out by programming their young into the local faith. Once "programmed" as such, it is then easy to keep on doing it to your own children.

The rule that makes my mind up about this is called "the rule of accident of birth" whereby any child that is born into a certain demographic or geographical area will almost-certainly be brought up in the local religion. Once indoctrinated into that religion/faith it is very difficult or often impossible to unlearn the doctrines that have been pushed into those innocent and open minds.

Some people like me that do have a questioning mind have the courage to go against this programming so as to eventually make up their own mature minds about such doctrines.

That is why, from a bitter and hate-twisted Protestant background in Ireland, I am now an athiest and humanist, and I can now breathe freely once again.


How about you.....ANYBODY ?

[Wrinkles]

I'm with you on this one Sir.
I was brought up in a fairly large though not overly religious family but was forced to go to Sunday school each week whilst Mum and Dad had a couple of hours to themselves. Ever the curious and with a logical mind I soon became disenchanted with the lie. Although Jesus may have existed he was a man, his father was a man
God is a fiction perpetrated as "The Opium of the masses"
I could not and still can not understand how so many people, worldwide can be taken in by it.

[Papaumau]

The most insidious and dangerous qualities about "faith" is that it neither asks for nor needs any proof.

Once indoctrinated into any faith it is virually impossible to unlearn that indoctrination so that even the most well-meaning of priests will ensure the continuation of that faith without question. Some are so hardline and well-policed that even any hint of weakness in the faithful or the slightest movement away from the dogma is instantly and severely punished.

I suppose that is why in many areas of the world religious freedom and democracy are completely unavailable and even these choices are totally misunderstood.

[Kaido]

When we see the quality of life as depicted on TV documentaries about old people's homes it makes one realise that modern medicine is just too good.

Life should not be prolonged just to let a person decompose as a living corpse - which is how I would consider the quality of life we are talking about.

Maybe we should be starting a worldwide debate concerning the stage where we do call it a day and either submit to or welcome voluntary euthenasia.

[Papaumau]

Thanks for your comment kaido !

I think that if this subject was put to a referendum - and explained in detail about the pitfalls connected to voluntary euthanasia - many of the sensible and humane people of this country - who are not biased  by religious rules - would vote to introduce this measure.

We already see movement here when we look at the number of cases that have been brought attached to assisted suicide. There has not been ONE conviction for this act of humanity even although the police and CPS are forced to prosecute every example of it because of outdated laws.

Yes Kaido, there needs to be a grown-up and open discussion about this very soon in Britain and the quicker the better as far as I am concerned.

[John]

I don't think life is just prolonged by medics.

There is no doubt that diet and life style has a large part to do with it.

I realise the level we are on about - the elderly female Eskimo having ground down her teeth
and able to do very little would cast herself off on an ice floe.

Quality of life is inside your own being.

Just how many people have got the ability to properly analyse themselves as to worth?

Very few I would say. Suicides committed over repairable predicaments are an indication of that.

[Papaumau]

Yes John this IS a very complex and difficult subject and maybe that is why very few people are willing to talk about it.

I agree that all of basic science, medicine, nutrition and exercise have gone together to make us live longer and that is a wonderful thing....BUT...at the end of the day all of us have to meet the final conclusion to our lives, Some of us will mercifully die quickly but some of us will die VERY slowly and in pain and misery and without dignity in care homes.

I for one do NOT want to go that way as I do not want to be a burden on my family or the state when I have done all I can do to contribute towards society. ( Here we see the true analogy of the eskimo, ( inuit ), who is put out into the snow to be devoured by a passing polar bear ). My question here is that this choice should be made by the person themselves and not by anyone else on their behalf. This includes, the government, the religious powers, or any interfering individual.

So long as the settled will of the first person is decided upon in clear mind and without mental illness I see no reason why anybody should not be able to determine their own deliverance and be helped by a loved-one when the time comes without fear of prosecution as a result.   

[David G]

I don't have the shackles of religion to contend with so bring voluntary euthanasia on in this country ASAP.
As soon as my quality of life falls below a certain level I want out, I've watched enough people die horrible deaths, and would I want to take the easy way out? you bet I would.  I am more than happy for the god gave life so only god can take it away people to do as they wish all I ask is they respect my wishes and don't try to force their beliefs and values on me.

[Jackie]

I think people are now coming to terms with the fact, and rightly so, that we put our pets to sleep when the time comes, so they do not prolong the missery and pain from their illness, so why not the same for us, of course I do realise its a little more complicated for us humans than it is for ending the life of our beloved pets, but none the less something we should all be taking seriously. After all this is our life/death we are talking about.

[Papaumau]

Sorry Jackie but it is not any more complicated for humans than it is for animals. It is MADE more complicated by religious interfering and by laws that are outdated that are also framed by religious hangup.

If we were truly humane humans we would look upon ourselves and others with the same humanity as we look upon our beloved pets.