The Lisbon Treaty has been ratified.

[Ivanhoe]

The Lisbon Treaty has been ratified,but not by the British people,  the Lisbon Treaty includes the European Social Charter, Britain does not have the Social Charter which looks after EU workers and EU pensioners, because New Labour have never taken us fully into Europe and adopted European Social policy, we remain with Thatcher’s legacy,

So we remain on the outside of Europe despite funding into the EU around £50 million a day of UK tax payers money.

Britain will remain in this situation for decades to come, because New Labour and the Tories are both right wing, ie, they don’t want Britain to be fully in Europe, even though Europe’s social model will benefit all British people.

]

[Papaumau]

Very few of the member states of the EU - including Britain - even got the chance to vote on this via referendum as most of the countries ratified it from government authority alone. Those that did get the chance - like Ireland - needed two bites at the cherry before they were educated enough to understand that ratifying this treaty was going to be good for them all in the long run.

Cameron steadfastly promised that if his Tories got into power he would give the British people a referendum on this subject but as it is now a fait accompli he is being forced to go back on his word. ( Of course he hoped that the British people would dismiss this idea out of hand so that the anti-Europe faction in his party might be ameliorated ). Be certain-sure that the Tory party are STILL torn right down the middle about Europe.

I am sure that once the people of Britain - in the main - understand what this treaty REALLY stands for - and are educated to that end, just like Ireland was educated - they too would see that it is much better for little Britain to be in than out.

As Ivanhoe says, it is neither one thing nor another if we just nibble around at the edges of a greater Europe, as we do at the moment, because doing this silly thing we are neither in or out. Our empire is gone and no matter how we look at it we are no longer a world power. To remain part of a powerful trading - if not military -  force in the world we MUST join with Europe and we MUST eventually go into EMU and accept the social chapter.

In the long run we have no other choice !

[Ivanhoe]

Papaumau, My sentiments precisely, but as far as educating the Brtish people ?,  forget it.

The Murdoch press will continue villifying Europe on it's pages, as will the up market right wing press like the Daily Telegraph.

The British in my view are not only largely politically thick, but to have them understand and/or comprehend the full meaning behind the Lisbon Treaty would simply go over their heads.

In my opinion Britain will remain outside of Europe re- this New Labour government, and yes the Tories are now in trouble due to the Treaty being signed, and the Lib-Dems have'nt a hope of gainng power.

[radar41]

http://forums.wanadoo.co.uk/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=fs_curraffairs&tid=75986

http://forums.wanadoo.co.uk/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=fs_curraffairs&tid=76002

[Wrinkles]

The Irish were educated were They?

I beg to differ, they were bribed and browbeaten in true EU manner. They voted NO but that wasn't the answer required so they were made to vote again. Had the answer been No again, they would have had another vote and so on until the required answer was given.  We didn't get a vote for one good reason, we would have voted an overwhelming NO and we would have kept on voting no. They couldn't have that so we didn't get the chance. It's done and dusted  now for Better of worse time will tell but I am pretty much sure it is going to be the latter and it will all end in tears

[Ivanhoe]

Its already in tears because we need to be fully in Europe, but we will never be fully in Europe because our "little englander" attitude is represented in New Labour and the Tories.

[Papaumau]

The Irish were educated were They?

I beg to differ, they were bribed and browbeaten in true EU manner. They voted NO but that wasn't the answer required so they were made to vote again. Had the answer been No again, they would have had another vote and so on until the required answer was given.  We didn't get a vote for one good reason, we would have voted an overwhelming NO and we would have kept on voting no. They couldn't have that so we didn't get the chance. It's done and dusted  now for Better of worse time will tell but I am pretty much sure it is going to be the latter and it will all end in tears

Wrinkles.......

I know that we often agree and disagree on many subjects and I would not have it any other way, but here, I think, you are getting caught up in populist opinion just because it is good to go with the flow.

With a bit of serious thought and the laying of the "fortress Britain" idea aside it is known by most who really think freely that being right at the heart of Europe as a sovereign and leading entity MUST be the way for Britain in any successful future.

It is easy to claw at the status quo just because we are afraid of those "Johhnie foreigners" on the other side of that narrow wet bit but anyone who REALLY stops and thinks about it who does not have a streak of xenophobia running a mile wide down their psyche must know that eventually we will be better in that out of that juggernaught that will eventually come out of this fragmented Europe.

No matter how the little Englanders look at Europe we are and always will remain Europeans as well as Brits.

[Ivanhoe]

Papaumau, Brilliantly observed.

But unfortunately it aint gonna happen with New "right wing" "market forces" low income tax" Labour in Britain, and it certainly wont happen under the Tories who are alien to the "ideals" of the EU Social Charter.

It can only happen under the Lib-Dems, but they are never going to be in government.

Britain needs a clean sweep, the kind we thought we were getting under Blair's New Labour government following 18 rotten Tory years.

In my view Britain is finished becuse the media and the establishment hold the whipping hand, and again my view the next general election will be the lowest turn out ever in our history, together with a hung Parliament.

[Edna]

The Lisbon Treaty has been ratified,but not by the British people,  the Lisbon Treaty includes the European Social Charter, Britain does not have the Social Charter which looks after EU workers and EU pensioners, because New Labour have never taken us fully into Europe and adopted European Social policy, we remain with Thatcher’s legacy,

So we remain on the outside of Europe despite funding into the EU around £50 million a day of UK tax payers money.

Britain will remain in this situation for decades to come, because New Labour and the Tories are both right wing, ie, they don’t want Britain to be fully in Europe, even though Europe’s social model will benefit all British people.

]

Labour ditched the Social Chapter opt-out in 1997

Have no idea what you mean by the social charter............something else you made up I guess.

[Ivanhoe]

Edna, You have never heard of the European Social Charter ?

[Edna]

Edna, You have never heard of the European Social Charter ?

I have now. We ratified it in 1962. The revised Charter was signed (but not ratified) in 1997. But what does it have to do with the Lisbon Treaty, or for that matter the EU? I can find no reference to it in Lisbon, and it's a Council of Europe treaty, not an EU treaty.

[Ivanhoe]

Edna, Im not amazed that you have never heard of the EU Social Charter, there must be millions of British people who equally have no idea and will continue to be ignorant of it, no offence intended there.

Please go to this link,-


http://www.coe.int/T/DGHL/Monitoring/SocialCharter/

[Edna]

Edna, Im not amazed that you have never heard of the EU Social Charter, there must be millions of British people who equally have no idea and will continue to be ignorant of it, no offence intended there.

Please go to this link,-


http://www.coe.int/T/DGHL/Monitoring/SocialCharter/

The social charter has nothing to do with the Lisbon traety.

read and research your own links before posting.

[Ivanhoe]

The Social Charter is encompassed in the Lisbon Treaty.

PS. Ive been researching for 20 years, that's how I know about Europe and the Social Charter.

[Edna]

The Social Charter is encompassed in the Lisbon Treaty.

PS. Ive been researching for 20 years, that's how I know about Europe and the Social Charter.

You know, it's a bad idea to flaunt a supposed lack of ignorance when apparently you can't tell the European Union and the Council of Europe apart.

I've already looked at the Council of Europe's web site. Did you read my post fully? Didn't you notice that your own link has has the lists of signatories and the dates the ESC was signed/ratified? Notice the hostname at the front of the URL? I got my data from the same web site.

But that is not an "EU Social Charter". In fact, it has nothing to do with the EU. The Council of Europe is not the EU. It is a separate organization entirely, which includes members like Russia and Azerbaijan.

So what has this to do with Lisbon, or indeed any other EU treaty? Please point me to chapter and verse of the TEU or TFEU that mentions the European Social Charter.