The Lisbon Treaty has been ratified.

[Papaumau]

I tried to divert the discussion away from bickering and personal insult as this way of behaviour on an open forum is destructive and achieves nothing.

Unlike some here I try to take the best out of what everybody says and after many years of taking part in online discussions I now know to avoid such destructive invective.

For all your elucidation here are the meanings of the very similar but different European Social Charter and the European Social Chapter.

It is always a good thing not to get bogged down by bickering about such differences.

The European Social CHAPTER:
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0046872.html

The European Social CHARTER:
http://www.coe.int/T/DGHL/Monitoring/SocialCharter/

Before anyone feels the need to discuss anything like this one needs to have all of the facts to hand. It is eminently stupid to fight about details when neither side actually know what they are fighting about. It is also extremely time and effort wasteful to vote for or against anything when you don't understand very much about it in the first place.

This is the situation that is brought about by doing anything via referendum as when this happens - in most cases, and as I said before - people who don't actually understand the ramifications of the details of such subjects are liable to then vote via political dogma or via base instinct. This is what happened in Ireland first time round and after the people of Ireland were made to actually understand what was going on in this Lisbon Treaty they chose to democratically vote FOR it.

I have always said..."let the experts - who usually understand all about such things - read all about important documents like this and then let THEM decide - either on political or practical grounds - the right way to go!"

[Ivanhoe]

Papaumau, Bsicaslly it means that Europe are moving forward, and Britain is stuck in the past with politicians who do not want to change the staus quo.

It will be, shall I say, interesting over the next few months to see what stance Cameron will take now the Lisbon Treaty has been signed.

You and I both know that the Tories dont want to know "Social Europe". so now that the Treaty has been signed,
the Tories are up a gum tree.
 

[Hells Granny]

Sometimes, I despair. How the heck will pensioners ever get a fair deal in this country if all most of you can do is flame each other?

I came here in the hope of finding a forum dedicated to the betterment of pensioners in general, and getting some justice from the Government in particular, and what do I find? Many of us here are no better than the younger generation many of us are so keen to slag off.

If this is supposed to be a campaigning Forum, let's put our differences aside, Quit Complaining and Start Campaigning!

Lets start acting our ages, not our shoe sizes, please!

Cheers, HG

[Papaumau]

WELL SAID HG !

[Ivanhoe]

Yes, me too H/G.