The state pension

[Ivanhoe]

/////I think you're all being a bit hard on John, I think he is referring to those who regard benefits as a career option and there are certainly many of them about who are only too happy to tell you you're lucky to have a job mate, but offer them one and the bad back / depression syndrome kicks in.
A lot of them are the same people who father children to a number of different women and pay nothing toward any of their childrens upkeep, resulting in more benefits paid to the mothers.
The next group are immigrants who have never paid into the system, get put into a luxury house paid for by the State and when there is an uproar they ask the question do you want me and my children out on the street? /

What a load of meaningless judgmental clap trap.

Descrimination against others should be a criminal offence, it happened during World War 2, by people who were a lot more than on here, and lead by a mad man.

[John]

Yes - to expand on the point I was trying to make.

The state pension is a right in return for specific contribution.

BUT this has been diluted by many who have not paid a penny
who receive other benefit in another wrapper, in this
context over pension age.

Not that this excuses the government in setting the pension low. 

It is also appreciated that some are not able to contribute because of
other conditions.

But I would expect that those genuine conditions  are on the decrease.

If anyone thinks it is bad now - the foundations have been laid in the
last decade that makes it worse for generations to come.

Its that rot that needs to be addressed and this present government
created it so they should go.

[John]

Ivanhoe jumping on a bandwagon, showing by his postings he knows little about.

Barring reading any newspapers.

I know you won't have a clue about that remark and you have the audacity to make out I am ignorant.

[Ivanhoe]

The state pension is low because it is being phased out in favour of the private pension, and means testing has replaced a general much higher and universial basic state pension.

The Pensions Credit means test system is costing 15 times more than the restoration of the earnings link would cost, and as more people reach retirement age, means test costs will spiral, and state pension costs will dwindle, at present the state pension being linked to inflation eqalls just 16 per cent national average earnings.

The government are sitting on a National Insurance "surplus" estimated at £60 billion. but they wont use it for said reasons.

All this expenditure excludes money spent abroad, money on foreign wars, plus £50 million a day into Europe.

Since the 80's under Thatcher, Government's have operated a monetarist system, to deliberately create mass unemployment as a tool against higher inflation.

So infact for almost 30 years, this and sucessive government's have offered the British people who have not resisted, a short term, low waged, insecure, welfare state economy culture.

[Aptis]

        Yo there my mate (Dave G) ---- Hard on John? Not at all; there is a great deal of merit in what he says. My initial point is, there are some that are not on benefits because they want to be, but because of circumstances; have to be. There is no joy in accepting money from the state for some of us; it is in a sense, degrading and a blow to the ego and that is putting it mildly. Perhaps I am old fashioned, perhaps too proud for my own good, I know not! But I would hack an arm off with a blunt spoon if it would give me the health to work again and not rely on what I see as charity. So when someone takes a 12 bore to kill a gnat. do not be surprised if someone nearby takes the flack and retaliates. 
 
      The statement regarding those who would abuse the system; I totally and unequivocally concur with, as no doubt you knew I would. But to take it further, I too object to money that could be used for drugs for the sick (or a little closer to home) money that could be used to make pensioners lives more comfortable and less stressful, being used to enable immigrants to live in better conditions than the indigenous population. I find it appalling to the point of obscenity, to pander to those who have come here in order to make money, an insult to all those that worked a lifetime here.

     We are constantly being told that we cannot afford to live as we are, and yet we allow immigrants into this country that then require housing, require medication, require dentistry, require food and clothing, require education and who is it that is expected to pay for all of this – the tax payer. If they arrive with a family they are provided with homes, nursery, schooling and all the accoutrements of modern life. These are the things that we had to work hard to get and nothing was given to us. Perhaps you think I go too far and know nothing of the things I speak of. Not so! I was in an office when the DHSS officials were handing out money for Kosovon refugees to travel to London on the train. The cheapest train fare at the time was £18 Saver return; they were given three hundred pounds to buy this ticket with. They could have been put on a bus for £14. As for the fit and healthy who scrounge on the state, I also agree with Dave ------ parasites of the first order. I have had experience with this type as well. Two of them, one either side of me saying that there was no way that anyone could make them get a job. No doubt they too would breed another nest of rats to suck the taxes out of the state coffers. Another section of society to be stood up against the wall!

      As I have said previously the politically correct in this country care more for their ideological philosophy than they care for the pensioners. Make no mistake John I agree with the general thrust of your statement, and perhaps I am a little touchy on this subject, but if I think I am being tarred with the same brush as then I will tend to bite.

      But I think we have taken our eye off the ball here; all I came on to say was; pensioners are being hard done by. We seem to have strayed into uncharted waters here but to make one final point regarding being Judgemental. I am very judgemental, I know right from wrong, I know good from bad and I am prepared to say so. I will not be bowed and intimidated by the do-gooding, liberal minded, mamby pamby, politically correct, woolly minded lobby that seems to permeate every aspect of modern life. These moronic loonies have caused more trouble in this country than almost any other faction.

            Finally – remember use your vote wisely and don’t vote for a major party!
               

[magicmoments]

Give it a rest ivanhoe. Anyone with any sense can see you choose not to work. You're on the internet all hours of the day.

[John]

Aptis

I believe we are singing from the same hymn sheet.

You are a bit touchy on this subject - but you have good
reason to be. The problem is that there is a hard core
of people who see a benefits lifestyle as something
to aspire to.

I have seen what I would say are hire cars stopping outside DSS offices,
containing women with shawls carrying babies and running in.

If I was cynical, I would say they were doing the rounds collecting daily
or other benefit.

The history of National Assistance and the foundation of it has little
in common with its use today.

The State Pension when fully contributed to, should be sufficient not
to have to claim any type of benefit. This is were people are let down.

So what would I expect that full pension to be?

The minimum wage (over 22) for a 40 hour working week. When that
goes up - the pension goes up.
 
The minimum wage is a European Working Directive but this government
try and claim credit - the word implement is used very loosely.

[Ivanhoe]

/////////////You are a bit touchy on this subject - but you have good
reason to be. The problem is that there is a hard core
of people who see a benefits lifestyle as something
to aspire to///////////////

What a load of judgemental rubbish, which you enjoy.

[John]

Troll

A posting about which was removed - but you prove it over and over again.

Otherwise the only option left is that you are thick (your words).

[Ivanhoe]

///You are a bit touchy on this subject - but you have good
reason to be. The problem is that there is a hard core
of people who see a benefits lifestyle as something
to aspire to///

I take it you have never been on welfare state means tested benefits then ?

[Ivanhoe]

////So what would I expect that full pension to be?////

Coupled with abolition of the council tax, at least £250- £300 a week per single pensioners with a relevant increase for couples.

Or this Government should honour the the agreement they signed at the Laeken summit in 2001 to increase state pensions to 40% of the National Average wage by 2007.

By way of background, at the Lisbon Council in 2000 - set up by Tony Blair - the Task Force on Poverty and Social Exclusion adopted 60% of state median income, the National Average Wage, as the basic low income threshold. They claimed that anyone earning less was living in poverty.  The government's own definition of poverty is £12,000 a year

But in 2007 pensioners in the UK currently receive the lowest pension in Europe, since Thatcher broke the link with earnings in 1980, almost 30 years ago.

The Netherlands and Italy pay 83%, Portugal and Greece pay 80%, Germany pays 65%, Belgium pays 60%, France and Spain pay
50% and Denmark 40%.

The UK old age pension is about 16%. It would appear that millions of UK pensioners are living below the poverty line. This appalling treatment of our elderly shames our nation and this and successive governments

Ireland used to be at the same level as the UK, but honoured the Laeken agreement by increasing their state pension to 40%over the last four years.

[Ivanhoe]

////The State Pension when fully contributed to, should be sufficient not
to have to claim any type of benefit. This is were people are let down///

Agreed.

[Ivanhoe]

///If I was cynical, I would say they were doing the rounds collecting daily
or other benefit///

Your lack of knowledge about how our welfare state is delivered, is plain to see.

[Ivanhoe]

////The history of National Assistance and the foundation of it has little
in common with its use today///

Okay, so what would you put in it's place ?

[Ivanhoe]

 ///The minimum wage is a European Working Directive but this government
try and claim credit - the word implement is used very loosely///

There are no EU Directives operating in Britain.