The wearing of the full veil ( Niqab ) in public.

[Papaumau]

The French government are set to approve the banning of the wearing of the full veil in public and this action has stirred up a strong debate between the ones that fear this could be a breach of human rights and the ones that want this last vestige of female repression outlawed in the West.

Read about the French plans HERE and come back and tell us how YOU feel about this idea and if you think that we should adopt the policy here in Britain too.

I have started this topic in my own forum and if you would like you can visit it and comment there too.

Here is the link: http://rippedoffbritain.forumotion.net/the-off-topic-chat-lounge-f6/the-ban-the-niqab-burka-debate-t1070.htm#8178

NB...... Since this post was set the French lower house have passed this law with only ONE dissenting vote !

[Hugh]

I agree with the French on this one but will the European courts back them???

[Papaumau]

Good point Hugh !

Mind you, I think that this is one of the laws that CAN be made unilaterally by any EU member state.

It will be interesting to see how this one plays out.

[jack sparrow]

I think people with iPod earplugs and dark sunglasses are scarier and more intimidating than a veiled woman. These people can't hear me, their view of me is distorted and I cannot see the mirror of their soul........their eyes. On the other hand I can speak to a veiled woman and be heard, a veiled woman can speak to me and be heard and we can both look deep into each other's eyes and know exactly what is on each other's minds.

I think you should clean up your own backyard, Chris, before you start meddling in things you know nothing about.

And stop reading The Sun.

[jack sparrow]

I should have said Papamau should clean up his own backyard.

[Chrisjay]

Jack Sparrow I am at a disadvantage at not reading the sun as you obviously do to keep referring to it but as a woman I do not think the Niqab has any place in the 21st century.

If it is OK to wear it and there is no impediment to communication (I wonder how you get close enough to make such in depth eye contact) or security should then everyone not be able to cover their faces in either crash helmets, balaclavas etc all of which the eyes can be seen for this wonderful eye contact experience.

Accused in court can cover their head so long as the eyes have it - I do not believe in different sets of rules to the exclusivity of a minority.  I do not find them intimidating I find them insulting.  When in Rome you do as the Romans do and westerners would not be allowed to walk round in skimpy clothes when visiting Muslim countries - you must respect the ways of the country you choose to live in and if that offends or does not fit your custom do not move there.

The biggest issue is that the Niqab is secular and prevents full integration, promotes oppression or perceived oppression of the wearer (not always a woman)  and isolates the wearer in their communities unless those communities are predominately Muslim.

As a woman I would ban them instantly as my parents and grandparents did not fight for equality of women just to have them covered as though there is something wrong with appearing in public and it is shameful to be outside.

[Papaumau]

All of the semantics aside I think that it all boils down to how we recognise someone who is wearing a niqab or a full-face helmet, or a ski-mask, or a bandana et-al, as all of these things are worn to HIDE the features - for whatever reason.

Maybe Jack can tell a lot from looking into a person's soul through their eyes, but most of us do not have that wonderful ability. Because we need to see a face to be able to register it in our memory for later use all of these forms of the hiding of the features are detrimental to this safety requirement.

I have always said - even as an athiest - that we should respect other people's faiths, but I do not believe that restricting an Eastern woman to Western ways in the respect of what I have said above is ANY insult to any faith.

Simple as that really !

[Chrisjay]

Thank you for saying that without the extremism posted by the other person.  It is possible, as you have shown to agree or disagree without being offensive and downright rude.

[caminito]

Hundreds of Syrian teachers wearing the face veil were dismissed from their schools as the Ministry of Education said they undermine the secularism of the state, according to press reports Tuesday.

Syrian Minister of Education Ali Saad said in a meeting with heads of Teachers Syndicate offices that the dismissal of 1,200 teachers who wear the face veil, also called the ‘niqab,’ was necessary, the Lebanese daily As-Safir reported Tuesday.

“Other ministers are going to do the same thing shortly,” he said.
   Education in Syrian schools follows an objective, secular methodology and this is undermined by wearing the face veil
   
Syrian Education Minister Ali Saad



Saad justified his decision by arguing that the face veil is not in line with the secular policies followed by the state as far as education is concerned.

“Education in Syrian schools follows an objective, secular methodology and this is undermined by wearing the face veil.”

He also pointed out that the face veil disrupts the teaching process as it hinders eye contact, which is extremely important for the relationship between teacher and student. Therefore, information is not delivered properly to the students.

The ministry’s decision affected teachers in various parts of Syria, especially the governorates Rif Dimashq in the south west and Aleppo in the north where teachers in nearly 300 schools in each were dismissed.

The number dwindled remarkably in the capital Damascus, while some governorates were not affected at all like Quneitra in the south.

The dismissed teachers, half of which have contracts with the ministry, were transferred to the Ministry of Local Administration, especially in the municipalities.

Several of the dismissed teachers submitted complaints which the minister promised will be thoroughly studies.

“We will look into their complaints and all they won’t lose their rights,” he said.
   Eliminating women’s identity through covering their faces has nothing to do with religion, whether Islam or Christianity or any other faith
   
Syrian Women Observatory




The ministry’s decision was treated with enthusiasm by both the public and the intelligentsia and especially by feminists as concerns about the spread of extremism has been lately on the rise.

The feminist website Syrian Women Observatory said that the face veil is a sign of going back to the dark ages and constitutes a call for extremism and warned of its negative impact on students, especially children.

The niqab, the website added, also erases women’s identity under the name of religion and that is why the ban should not only be confined to schools.

“Eliminating women’s identity through covering their faces has nothing to do with religion, whether Islam or Christianity or any other faith.”

The website compared the face veil to other edicts that are issued under the name of Islam like the controversial fatwa about adult breastfeeding and which stirred the indignation of Islamic scholars and secular intellectuals alike.

(Translated from Arabic by Sonia Farid).

[Chrisjay]

Although quoted well said

[jack sparrow]

A lot of women CHOOSE to wear a veil. I would not force anyone to wear a veil. A full face helmet is for protection. A ski mask is for protection. A bandana is worn around the neck. Et-al just shows a complete lack of imagination. None of these things are for HIDING.

You people are islamophobes and you need to clean up your own backyard before you start poking your noses in things that do not concern you!

Women in this country are FORCED  to work and to abandon their children to the mercy of paedophiles and incompetent, bullying teachers!

Sort that out!

[Chrisjay]

You poor thing I never dreampt that you had this experience in childhood its no wonder that you have so many emotional problems with women who are independant and it is also very sad that abused people often turn out to be the abusers.

There is no one on this site that are islamophobes but judgeing by what you are telling us all Islamic women who work and wear the veil voluntarily are being FORCED to do this leaving their children at home to be abused or bullied by teachers at school also abuse.

I would offer according to your earlier post you consider women wear the veil also for protection, like helmets etc.  So as you are made to take helmets off in a bank should you not also in the normally safe enviroment of a bank be asked to remove it?

If you wear glasses you have to remove them for passport photo's so the government recognises the need for full face recognition for communication and identification.

By the way I thought you 'poked your nose' in here? were you invited and if you have such a low opinion of us all poke your nose somewhere else!  The person with a problem is you as you appear to be an intollerent bigot.

[Chrisjay]

It is now well past your bedtime

[jack sparrow]

You know what I'm saying is right. You don't have an answer for me because the only answer is a negation of everything you lived for or thought was worthwhile. Hurt people hurt people. The nice life you worked so hard for was actually at someone else'e expense; same as the cushy life I've had. I know where it came from though and it wasn't out of the taxpayers pockets. The exploitation in the world is out of my control but I know that it's going on, I know who is doing it and I know who is benefitting from turning a blind eye to it.

I want it to stop.

[caminito]

who controls the world then, ? 
Could it be ...
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_clubrome09.htm
or...
http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=0369
Do you believe this kind of Conspiracy theory .
or are you just an angry person ?

Back to the thread ..

The other members of the forum were not being racist , inflammatory or nasty in imo . They were just debating/discussing a very valid
point that has a great deal to do with cultural differences between muslims and christians.
This is a debate that will increase in ALL western european countries

Perhaps you should try to take a bible into Saudi Arabia . Better still try and get planning permission to build a church !
Are the Saudis being racist , Well it's their country and they make the laws .
The west has been very generous to muslim immigrants but muslim countries have not given one inch to christian values or customs !
Sweden, Switzerland , Holland , France , Germany and many other countries are debating in their parliaments now , how islam is effecting life in the western democracies.  The Niqad is just a very visual difference !.
Syria and Turkey oppose the wearing in most areas of business !
Trying wearing a crash helmet or Balaclava in your bank . The signs say please remove your crash helmet before entering
What about the Niqad. ?

I find it offensive to see a woman controlled and made to cover up or walk behind the man !
Is she some lesser being ? Perhaps a stoning to death will be her reward for daring to be a man's equal !

Quote..
The German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, has claimed that multiculturalism has failed badly in her country.

The chancellor, taking a hard line against immigrants who have refused to learn the language and assimilate into society, announced on Saturday that the multicultural model for integration in Germany had "miserably failed."

In the UK , Bradford is a good example of multicultural falure in the UK
As the Muslims move in and the christians move out !

Religious statistician Peter ­Brierley said that as the Muslim population in Bradford was about 80,000, on a conservative estimate 20,000 are regular worshippers, more than double the number of their Anglican counterparts.

We should discuss the issues but calmly , openly and listen with respect to others !