hypocritcal grabbing pensioners

[John Sheffield]

The reason the State Pension is low today is because the index link was broken in 1980, to enable low taxation for todays retiring or soon to retire baby boomers. At this time they were paying mortgages and raising children.

Is it not a little hypocritcial that 30 years later you are demanding that the link be restablished just when you are due to recieve it?

You moan that todays pensioners are treated badly-you have very short memories. Your grabbing generation allowed the index link to be broken just when the WW2 generation were retiring in numbers. This has and continues to impoverished thousands of this generation over the last 30 years. Where was your concern for pensioners in 1980?

[avalonmpk]

Well said John as a child of the thirties I agree pay a fair pension to those who have worked and paid their dues and in most cases served their country in wartime.
My little pension just and only just puts me in the tax bracket - paid £84 in direct taxation this past year.
Where does the money go : to pay for the baby boomers irresponsible  offspring who can't on won't keep their knickers/trousers on abuse drugs drink to excess and 'study' for mickey mouse degrees.
In some of our cities a woman cannot go out in the evenings on their own, if you are an elderly pensioner then a trip to a city centre at night is a nightmare

[John Sheffield]

Avalon,

I agree that the state pension should be index linked. It is entirely right that if the nations wealth increases, so should the state pension.

What annoys younger generations is that older pensioners (75+) has been drawings low pensions for the last 30 years because of the selfishness of todays younger or soon to retire pensioners (baby boomers). They wanted low income tax and broke the index link in 1980 to enable them.

When the 55s to 70 year olds campaign about pensioner poverty and the low state pension, I would like all older pensioners to remember the cause of this. This selfish (and wealthy) generation now use your genuine stories of pensioner poverty in order to maintain its wealth.  They created your poverty to enable low taxes for themselves in the 198) and 90s.

In 1980 todays older pensioners were the victims of this generations greed, now in 2010 the victims are young familes. Try asking a 65 year old why the basic state pension is low, their memories suddenly shorten.

[Papaumau]

Let's put this in context shall we......

It was not the people who were living and working at the time that caused the average-wage-index-linked pension to be reduced to being linked to the inflation rate, it was the government of the day. Not surprisingly it was Thatcher that destroyed this link and while it was never going to be re-connected while the Tories were in power it was not re-connected during the thirteen years of the New-Labour government either.

Brown promised - just before the last election - that he would make this re-connection but he said that we would have to wait FIVE YEARS before this would come about.

This link is to be remade very soon because the Liberal Democrats in the Tory coalition have forced the Tories to do this because it was a flagship cause in the Lib-Dem manifesto.

Being a person who campaigns every day for the rights of the consumers and the pensioners in this country I am in dismay that this re-connection with the average wage is not going to include a back-dated payment.

All the rest of the "stuff" being discussed in this thread is window-dressing and just aims to complicate a very simple situation.

[John Sheffield]

What a pompous reply Papaumau. You really hold your opinions in high esteem don't you. This thread was'n't started for you to 'put it into context'. Is that what you do, read threads and add your infinite wisdom to finish the thread.

Its amazing how many 55-70 year olds blame Thatcher for breaking the index pension link. The last time I looked we live in a democracy and did in 1979. The whole point of this thread is that it was the votes of your generation that voted Margaret Thatcher into power- on the promise of low taxation. Its also amazing how many 55-70 year olds deny voting for Thatcher.  Where have all the boomer votes that voted Tory in 1979 gone. Electoral mathematics tells us there were millions of them.

I don't remember your generation is your 20s and 30s complaining that breaking the pension-index link was unfair on pensioners. No you allowed this to happen because it allowed low taxation for you when you were raising children and paying mortgages. You allowed the pension to devalue of the last 30 years, right up until the point you began to draw it. Now you complain.

[Papaumau]

What a pompous reply Papaumau. You really hold your opinions in high esteem don't you. This thread was'n't started for you to 'put it into context'. Is that what you do, read threads and add your infinite wisdom to finish the thread.

Its amazing how many 55-70 year olds blame Thatcher for breaking the index pension link. The last time I looked we live in a democracy and did in 1979. The whole point of this thread is that it was the votes of your generation that voted Margaret Thatcher into power- on the promise of low taxation. Its also amazing how many 55-70 year olds deny voting for Thatcher.  Where have all the boomer votes that voted Tory in 1979 gone. Electoral mathematics tells us there were millions of them.

I don't remember your generation is your 20s and 30s complaining that breaking the pension-index link was unfair on pensioners. No you allowed this to happen because it allowed low taxation for you when you were raising children and paying mortgages. You allowed the pension to devalue of the last 30 years, right up until the point you began to draw it. Now you complain.

WE DID NOT "allow this to happen" as we were not in any position to stop it !

When I see anyone making an ill-thought-out and stereotypical attack on any gross demographic of the people of Britain I always feel that I should defend them.

If you cannot handle the heat in the kitchen then all you can do is go where it is cooler.

[John Sheffield]

Papaumau,

Who on earth did vote for Margaret Thatcher? Over 13.5 million voters did. In 1979 the grabbing boomers has an even bigger share of the voting block than they do now. You may personally not have voted Tory, but it was your generation whose votes elected the Conservatives. This is not my opinion it is Mathematics.

I remember your generation rioting in T Square in protest at the Poll tax (quite rightly). Did you protest at the breaking of the pension- index link. No, because your generation benefited from it. Only 30 years later when you are drawing pensioner benefits/pensions do you showan interest in pensioner welfare.

History will remember you as a greedy self serving generation. When your generation was in your 20s and 30s you impovershed the WW2 generation for self gain. Now you are pensioners yourselves you want to impoverish young familes for your self gain. I hope older pensioner remember this when you are asking them to sign your petitions and attend your marches.

[avalonmpk]

Pappa I forgot you deny having supported any political party at least so it seem, but then that's what happens when they open the asylum gates, you live in a BIG RED CLOUD.
Tell us who you supported over the past eighty years - Sorry I'm getting old you have already told us that you  are very young - perhaps you need some adult guidance.
Why do you think that when people/governments/companies are in debt they say they are in the RED!!!
But in my part of the country we are polite and say we are in the mire (red being a Wessex euphemism for manure)

[John Sheffield]

I don't want this to get personal Pappa, but do you not see the hypocrisy?Can you not understand why older pensioners & young families should be united in recognition of  your generation's selfishness.



-1980 pension index link broken to enable low taxation/NI for baby boomers, aged 30ish



-2010 baby boomers want  the link restoring paid by higher taxation/NI ,aged 65ish

[Hugh]

Who on earth did vote for Margaret Thatcher?

This question is very easy to answer, I was serving the royal navy at the time and watch industries with powerful unions get pay rises of 10% and more while we got 1%. So just how many forces personnel would vote labour again?This also applies other workers without strong union backing they were also struggling with the very high inflation and very low pay rises and getting less for their pay each week.

The very weak male PMS at the time allowed powerful union leader to take control. I believe women of the time got fed up and voted for a women for a change.

Guess what? I got a 40% pay rise to catch up on wages lost under labour 

[Papaumau]

The mass of the people who voted for the three terms of office of the Tories were the same people who voted for the three terms of office of Blair and his New-Labour mob.

These have come to be known as the "floating voters" who, while they are from all walks of life, are willing to turn their coats to support the political groups that promise them the most.

This is easy to see, as the swingometer that the  political reporters use in the news programmes highlight these swings at every change of government.

It now seems that the voters are more interested in self and what they as individuals can get out of a government than they are about principles.

Having said all that I am not willing to dig out certain steotypical groups like you people seem willing to do.

If you have not yet had the sensitivity to see where my politics come from then you are just not reading what I write.

I will make it easy for you and I will make it clear that I am Socialist, ( NOT Communist ), and I want to see a government that truly cares about the people - ALL of the people - and not just those that can pat their backs for looking after the ones that are capable of looking after themselves.

I dallied with the idea that the Liberal Democrats might have had these qualities, but since they threw in their lot with the Tories and became their lap-dogs, ( just like Blair was Bush's lap dog ), I have went back to my roots and hope that eventually "old Labour" will modernise itself and come back on a platform of  looking after the ones who need looking after rather than the ones with the greatest clout.

At least,  ( even if you do not agree with my principles ), I HAVE SOME.

Can you people say that ?   

[Hugh]

I will never ever judge people on their principle or who they decide to vote for. I just hope they vote for the party who they feel will run the country best for all.

All I have done Papa is to given two reasons I believe to be true why people turned their backs on labour and voted for M.Thatcher conservative party.

I respect what you and Ivanhoe are trying to do, and admire your efforts. Agreeing with you and Ivanhoe is another matter.

I am not happy that the Lib dems gave my vote away and I had no say in the matter.   

[Papaumau]

Hugh.....

Of course you are right that we have to agree to disagree at times as we are all individuals with individual wants and needs.....BUT...rather than attacking the person when one disagrees ( I am NOT talking about you here BTW ), with what people say, surely is is better to actually say what you, ( anybody ), stands for rather than attacking people for just having an opinion.

It is in strong discussion without invective that debate becomes the life's-blood of democracy and I have tried to find this kind of debate all over the internet and in many places off it too. Sadly I always bump into the haters and the trolls and the namecallers and the destroyers when I look for such reasoned debate.

I am sure, that people, just like you, that might not agree with what Ivanhoe or I say can happily attack our opinions without attacking our persons. I wish there were more like you Hugh !

[Ivanhoe]

J/ S. How long have you been campaigning for the elderly then ?

[Ivanhoe]

////////I don't want this to get personal Pappa, but do you not see the hypocrisy?Can you not understand why older pensioners & young families should be united in recognition of  your generation's selfishness.

-1980 pension index link broken to enable low taxation/NI for baby boomers, aged 30ish

-2010 baby boomers want  the link restoring paid by higher taxation/NI ,aged 65ish/////////

Your posting J. S.  Just goes to prove how much you know, absolute zilch.

First of all means testing pensioners care of Pensions Credit is costing excessively more than it would cost to restore the earnings link.

Secondly, the Government are sitting on a National Insurance "surplus" of £44.340 billion.