Ghettoism, is it a good thing ?

[Papaumau]

Since the last war we have struggled to house the families at the bottom end of society and as the years have passed by instead of trying to integrate the poor or the ethnic groups with the rest and across the board the councils seem to have always been willing to take the easy way out by lumping each of these sub-categories in ghetto-like conurbations.

This has created no-go areas where anyone not of that ghetto takes their lives in their own hands by traveling through or visiting such areas.

Because ethnic and disadvantaged groups feel safer in such ghettos they also seem to gravitate to these areas by choice, making the whole situation worse and worse as time goes by.

Since the Thatcher right-to-buy scheme took hold the "nicer" areas have been bought up by the sitting tenants leaving the dregs of the housing stock for the poor and the disadvantaged. This too adds to the creation of ghetto-like areas.

It is not surprising that the life-spans of people living in such dumping-grounds is much lower than that of the areas where the better-advantaged people are able to live.

It is a scandal and an indictment on local and national government that this situation exists.

Don't you agree.....?

[John Sheffield]

Papau

There are many reasons for the housing problems in the UK, immigration and marriage breaks ups are factors. The baby boomers desire to break a perfectly natural way of recycling family homes is another.

In previous decades there has been a natural recycling of family sized homes. Young families occupied these homes (private & council), once their kids had flown the nest and retirement was coming up these near pensioner sold these homes and moved into smaller homes. This worked for everybody, the pensioners disposable income increased as utility bill and council tax were lowered and the money gained from downsizing provided a nest egg. Families benefitted because familiy sized homes became available on the market. My grandparents did this in the 1970s it was sensible and seemed a completely natural self regulating cycle.

The baby boomers have decided to break this cycle.  They want the tax payer to reduce their utility costs and council tax and remain in the family sized house. This is why we are seeing the universal tax payer paid  winter fuel payments. This is why we are seeing campaigns for a local income tax. Where as previous stoical generations of pensioners seeked to reduce their own costs. This generation want to pass these costs to younger generations. This is why we have a perverse situation in this country where many families are cramped in small homes sharing bedrooms, whilst pensioners are sitting in empty family homes. Remember the backlash when Cameron suggested that OAP may be asked to move to smaller council homes when they don't need the space and families do.

This generation have changed the natural historic balance between the generations, housing is one area where problems are emerging because of this.

[Papaumau]

By that response it is obvious that you are not bothered about the "bottom end" of society, as I am.

That "recycling" you are talking about is done by people who are high enough up on the living scale to be able to OWN their property and to be able to "recycle" it through their family.

As you seem uninterested in this realm of society you may be surprised to find out that this only takes up around fifty percent of the population of Britain, and the other fifty percent are struggling on day by day wondering where the money is going to come from to pay for food, clothing, rented accomodation ( if they are lucky enough not to be on the homeless list ) and keeping their home warm and dry and their old bangers of cars on the road.

( I used to be that soldier, BTW ).

Maybe you should try putting yourself in that strata rather than thinking everybody is as lucky as you are. Also, you could do very well by not stabbing the baby-boomers in the back at every chance.

NOW...back to the subject, rather than trying to change it....

[Hugh]

Well John I can tell you many reasons why pensioners remain in their family size home. Children do not stay in their home town and travel for work in different parts of the country so they want space for their children to visit

In my case a bungalow in a nice location would cost me alot more than my house is worth so we stay put which was just as well because my eldest son lost his job and home and now returned to us

[Papaumau]

Excellent point Hugh !

I too am living in a fairly large home - which I own - and if I was to move downmarket in order to release my present home for a four-person family to buy I too would not be able to have my relatives - especially my grandchildren - to stay with us.

Accepting that there are many pensioners that are what is called "property-rich, but cash poor" we also have to consider these people who have obviously worked and scrimped and saved all of their lives in order to have a freeehold home and a safe roof over their heads in retirement.

Obviously, our Mr Sheffield seems to think that most of the baby-boomers that are now pensioners are well off in all respects and are taking money from the state in false pretences.

Sadly in most cases he is very WRONG here and he should look at how other people live as pensioners WITHOUT constantly trying to make us all out to be wasters and chancers.

In fact I am quite surprised how nobody else here has taken umbridge at his suggestions that we are all a load of opportunists who do nothing but hold our hands out to the government.

I am also sure that most of the pensioners that write to this PENSIONERS FORUM are not in the enviable position of being rich, indolent and able and willing to help out the Tory government with aid in paying back the deficit.

[Hells Granny]

I don't know about other parts of the country, but the council in my area are implementing a new scheme.

We have our 'sink-hole estate', where in the past the people who are often in trouble with the police, or aren't in step with the general population have traditionally been put, but this is changing. New estates are being built here which contain certain houses for Housing Association clients peppered in amongst the houses for sale. These look no different and the idea is that folk put in them will raise their self-esteem if placed in a mixed environment and hopefully not succumb to the attitude which is common on the 'ghetto' estates that 'We can't go any lower, why should we try?'

My daughter is in one of these Housing Association homes, with he husband and toddler son, and so far the experiment seems to be working.

Cheers HG

[Hells Granny]

I don't know about other parts of the country, but the council in my area are implementing a new scheme.

We have our 'sink-hole estate', where in the past the people who are often in trouble with the police, or aren't in step with the general population have traditionally been put, but this is changing. New estates are being built here which contain certain houses for Housing Association clients peppered in amongst the houses for sale. These look no different and the idea is that folk put in them will raise their self-esteem if placed in a mixed environment and hopefully not succumb to the attitude which is common on the 'ghetto' estates that 'We can't go any lower, why should we try?'

My daughter is in one of these Housing Association homes, with he husband and toddler son, and so far the experiment seems to be working.

Cheers HG

[Papaumau]

I can see what the more enlightened local housing authorities are trying to do here and the idea is definitely laudable.

While it is a plan that is quite easy to work on paper it is not a plan that is so easy to work in practicality. Human beings are naturally drawn to their own kind and feelings of snobbery often stop people who have a bit more money available to them from wanting to move into what is now called "affordable housing". This helps to create the "sink-hole estates" as like-draws-to-like.

As it is much more easy to house "like-with-like" the council-housing authorities and the housing associations are seriously pressurised to keep on creating such "ghetto" areas.

It will only be when there is less deprivation at the lower end that these "ghetto-style" areas will be diminished - if not removed completely.

As there will always be a small section of society that are attracted to such "sink-holes" - if they exist - then we have to try very hard to minimise this situation as much as we can.

[GrannyMac]

Ghettoism has happened in many instances due to the changes in housing policies since the 80s.  As governments have legislated more and more for allocations based on need and vulnerability, so we have seen the majority of properties going to people who fit the profile.  This means concentrations of families with chaotic lifestyles and high levels of unemployment, along with people who have physical and mental health issues, and elderly people who often feel trapped in what was once an area they felt safe in.  Most of us wouldn't choose to live in those conditions, but for some getting a council house is their preferred option.

Mixed tenure estates have been growing, but the recent recession has meant a reduction in building any new homes.  I'm a retired housing worker, and have also had experience of living in most types of housing during my life.  I'm in a fortunate position now having no mortgage, but thats partly due to my husband and I downsizing to reduce our outgoings in retirement - as many tenants used to do when they were responsible for their own rents.  My in-laws, who lived in council accommodation did exactly that.

The discussion about single elderly people living in family sized houses isn't straightforward.  There are those whose families live away and they need room for when they visit.  But there are also some who can no longer manage to look after their home or garden, often those people have no close family.  Home helps and care assistants can only do so much.  There needs to be the right support for elderly people in that position, and the right choice of alternative and manageable housing.  Some local authorities offer financial incentives to move, along with practical help and the right move can be in the individual's best interests.  If they move to sheltered accommodation, it will cost more in benefits, but it will also free up much needed social housing for families.

 

[Hugh]

On the road I live which is mainly private there are two which are rented both of which have unloved gardens. Next door to me are one of them and I now have the task of keeping their weeds at bay. Are these people one offs or is this the general practice with rented properties???

[Papaumau]

On the road I live which is mainly private there are two which are rented both of which have unloved gardens. Next door to me are one of them and I now have the task of keeping their weeds at bay. Are these people one offs or is this the general practice with rented properties???

Hugh......

I think we see this syndrome in many rented estates and its is true that when people do not feel the ownership of the property they live in they also feel that they do not have the incentive to look after the property or the garden areas. This is why - and you are correct here - that almost all of the previously-rented properties that have since become owner-occupied are looked after much better after the connection to the property becomes more personal.

I don't think that there is an easy answer to that particular problem.

Hi GrannyMac.....

It is good to read your obviously well-thought-out opinion. It is also good to find someone here that REALLY seems to know what they are talking about.

[Ivanhoe]

///////There are many reasons for the housing problems in the UK, immigration and marriage breaks ups are factors.///////

John Sheffield.

The only reason's for the housing crisis in this country are because since the 80's housing has been left to "the market" as house prices have soared way about the average wage, leavings millions of people behind.

And Thatcher stopped building council houses for rent in the 80's and 90's, and this factor alone remains with us, making the high rent private sector the only refuge for millions.

It makes me puke when people blame immigrants, they are a scapegoat.

[Ivanhoe]

Papaumau, Across the EU and Nordic countries renting is as natural as the air we all breathe, only in Britain is homeownership regarded as "the god" to worship above everything else.

We dont live in "houses" anymore, we live in "properties".

"Ghettoism" is unheard of in the EU and Nordic counties, but then these countries are not class entrenched like we are, and class is our downfall in my opinion.

"Ghettoism" seperates the council house tenant, from the owner occupier, and council tenants are treated as inferiors.

We are a nation of nymbys, because house prices are deemed to fall if built near council houses, hence this countries "ghettoism".

[Papaumau]

Got to agree with you there Ivanhoe !

The market forces should have been kept out of council and housing association rentable homes as like with all services, ( and this IS a service ! ), the profit motive only does damage and turns this market into a sector where only the more well off people can get quality housing.

Even worse is when such properties get into the hands of the private buy-to-let mob as then the people who really need such housing are very quickly priced out of such a market. If this stock gets into the Rachmann/type of landlord's hands it is usually allowed to fall quickly into disrepair and becomes only suitable for the people at the very bottom and the people that are given short term council tenure that are homeless and/or on benefits.

The whole system has been turned into a racket just because Thatcher wanted low-cost "social" housing in her "open market" along with the rest.

OH and BTW...America too houses most of it's citizens in rented accommodation.

In the USA it is only the really well off that buy property to live in.   

[Ivanhoe]

Thatcher has turned this country of ours into a bloody free market casino, and the people have been greedy enough to go with it, blinded by greed and self interest, even to the detriment of their offspring.