open question to the 60s

[John Sheffield]

Before and since the election young working families are constantly being told cuts must be made in order to deal with the defict, credit crunch,recession.

Young families have been told that CTCs are being cut, Child Benefit may be means tested, NI is increasing, tuition fees will increase, pay freezes, increased pension contribution and increased age at which we will draw it etc etc. We are told to accept this as it is a necessity.  However when the Coalition announce  potential cuts or further means testing for OAP benefits such as means testing the bus pass, the pension lobby scream blue murder & throw the teddy bears out of the pram whilst demanding actual increases in OAP benefits.

I don't think anyone would  be foolish enough to argue that the conditions which caused the credit crunch, deficit and recession didn't happen whilst baby boomers were in charge of  the nations banks, businesses and political institutions.

Can anyone from this generation aged say 58-68 suggest how pensioners should share in the pain of the recession and defict reduction that their generation created? I keep hearing  them shout  how they shouldn't, it would be to here some ideas about how they should.

[Papaumau]

AGAIN...I will try to separate the needy from the greedy here !

My pal Ivanhoe has always said that the way that means-testing is done these days is not only inefficient and arbitrary but it costs more money to run than it saves.

No argument there !

If I AGAIN go back to the point that the weak and the poor and the sick and the old should be protected from Cameron's slash and burn exercise we are left with the fact that it should only be the ones that can handle such draconian cuts that should have to suffer from them.

Of course the CONDEM government will attack the weakest targets they can see in this task simply because they are the ones that will not be able to fight back.

A disgusting and cowardly way to do anything as far as I am concerned !

A great sage once said that the civilisation of any country is measured by how they treat their weak, their poor, their sick, and their old people and that, to me says it all ! 

[John Sheffield]

Papa,

I think you may have hit a wrong button on your computer and replied to the wrong thread.

This thread asked for suggestions how people aged around 58-68 should share the pain of the countyrs defict/recession/credit.

Any suggestions?

[Papaumau]

NO...as usual you TOTALLY missed my point !

This demographic should NOT be asked to help Cameron out of a hole as they are the ones that are already being hit the hardest.

Do you actually read ANYTHING I write or do you just keep following your own blinkered thought-processes to the detriment of the people of this country that need our help ?

[John Sheffield]

Papa
You don’t get online discussion forums do you?

Just take a minute and calmly look at your posts above.

I began this thread asking for how people in their 60s should contribute to reducing the nation’s deficit. It was of course a loaded question, but nevertheless a valid one.
You decide to post a reply that has nothing to do with the thread. I point this out and you reply that I have ‘missed the point’ (it was me that started the thread).  Papa, your posts are full of bold statements that don’t belong on discussion forums:’ No Arguments there!’,  ‘No!’, ‘NO...as usual you TOTALLY missed my point!’ etc etc. Not content with these statements you capitalize them, use a bold format and your number 1 key must be worn out by your use of exclamation marks. Your blatant high valuation that you put on the weight of your opinion is quite staggering.

‘Your pal Ivanhoe’ takes a similar approach. In one post he smugly threatened to delete posts of another poster, because their opinions did not match his own , ‘If there were a way of blocking your postings among all the others I receive, I would, but I can't', so I’ll just delete them as they come through’. Delete posts for bad language, severe personal abuse and the like- not because peoples opinions differ.

Why post on discussion forums if you have no interest in other people’s views? This is the whole point of discussion forums. Ego-centric megalomaniacs, by definition, will not be good contributors to discussion forums. It may be a good idea for you and ‘Your pal Ivanhoe’ to set up a password only forum called the Papa & Ivanhoe Forum.

I’ll refer back to the thread. Could anyone aged 58-68 suggest how they should contribute to reducing the nations deficit? Particularly as this age group have dominated senior positions in banks, Government etc for the last 20 years whilst this deficit was accrued.

[Papaumau]

I too can refer back to your original threadstart:

Mr Sheffield said:

I’ll refer back to the thread. Could anyone aged 58-68 suggest how they should contribute to reducing the nations deficit? Particularly as this age group have dominated senior positions in banks, Government etc for the last 20 years whilst this deficit was accrued.

And I reiterate.....

We should NEVER stereotype all of that age group as "dominating senior positions in banks, government etc" when most of that age group - and the ones that I care about - are already suffering from being targetted by cowardly government actions.

I do not give a damn for the fat-cat bankers or government politicians in that age-group as they can happily look after themselves; I give a damn for the ones within that age-group that are struggling to subsist.

Are you astonishingly trying to tell us that that group are not in need of our support ?

I also astonishingly cannot understand why you have your knife in the backs of the baby-boomers just because it is they that are amongst today's pensioners !

If you are young enough NOT to be a baby-boomer then this is all going to come to you eventually too. Maybe then you will have some thought for YOUR selfish situation.

I mean...what the hell are you doing on this pensioners forum when you seem to have it in for today's pensioners.

[avalonmpk]

All you have to do is separate the socialists from the realists; the babyboomers have bred a nation of workshy spongers. and single parent units you can hardly call them families! No morals no sense of pride in a job well done, no self motivation, just take take take! now you have to put something back. If you doubt my comments are true go to Newcastle on a Saturday night!!!
As a child of the 30's I say a curse on the lot of you.

[Papaumau]

Sorry Avalon, but that is just more stereotypical clap-trap !

The "take-take-take" instinct of human beings is prevalent right across the spectrum and I have found that the ones that "take-take-take" the most are the ones that HAVE the most.

I don't think that you know very much about Socialism as I think you are just reacting like many others that think they were scared by one while they sat in their prams.

"Socialists" have a very wide-ranging set of ideals right from the most hard-line Communists through the Labour movement and right into New-Labour, even if Blair instructed the New-Labour faithful never to use that "S" word.

Here again you cannot clump them all into a scary bunch like the "red's" of old that were said to be "hiding under the bed".

I am proud to be a middle-of-the road Socialist as such Socialists - of my type - spend many of their waking hours looking after each-other and the rest of the proletariat, who are often the easy targets for cowardly government actions.

I think that it is time that more people actually thought about this and instead of throwing their brickbats at what they see as "scary Socialists" they should realise that being SOCIAL with each-other is the best that they can do.

[avalonmpk]

Papa I go further Socialists are the most evil self centred group of 'people' that ever walked this earth, they are full of manure and incapable of saving anything for a rainy -day  nothing but instant self gratification, I watched them for almost eight decades and they just get worse. Nobody owes them a living or a pension you work and save for your own - they only people who should be supported by their peers are the infirm.

[David G]

PENSION pots in the UK are shrinking at an alarming rate despite the gradual recovery of the economy, according to a worrying report.
All caused by those who have over borrowed, overspent, reneged on their debts, what do you want from pensioners, blood?

[Papaumau]

Papa I go further Socialists are the most evil self centred group of 'people' that ever walked this earth, they are full of manure and incapable of saving anything for a rainy -day  nothing but instant self gratification, I watched them for almost eight decades and they just get worse. Nobody owes them a living or a pension you work and save for your own - they only people who should be supported by their peers are the infirm.

SEE Avalon.... you are doing it again !

You simply cannot stereotype all Socialists as "evil" or "self-centred" as the spectrum of Socialist ideals is a very wide and complex one.

I have already agreed that the hard-liners Like Stalin and Trotsky and yes, even Marx, were extreme in their views and actions but all Socialists are not like that !

The middle-of-the-road Socialists like me are the ones that DO care about each-other and the ones at the bottom of the barrel and it is a fact that if someone does not care about this demographic that they will always be the victims of the rich and the powerful opportunists.

I have always thought that the ones that are truly working class - which includes many people in middle management of course - should admit to being from that strata of society ( there's that word again ), and they should stop looking down their noses at the people from what they consider to be the bottom end.

We should all stick together and support each-other against the abuses from above, because, if we do that, we will find that the rich and powerful ones will then be aware of our strength in numbers.

There is an old Commie name for this: SOLIDARITY.

[John Sheffield]

Nope still no suggestions from those in their sixties as to how they should share in the pain of the recession.

Do a little research David G. Whilst pensioner poverty is still an issue (and always will be), its also a fact that younger pensioners or near pensioners say 55-70 have never owed a bigger proportion of the nations wealth and have never had such big disposable incomes. Hundreds of thousands are on secure guaranteed final salary pensions - now denied to younger workers

Hopefully, unlike Papa, you will be able to distinguish between facts and opinions. The points above are not my opinions, they are mathematical facts. Don't take my word for it, view these facts on the ONS website. Alternatively read some recent market research reports, they will all advise that that products should be increasing marketed at the over 50s as they have much bigger disposable incomes than ever before.

Market research reports are not concerned with politics, right/left or wrong/right they are concerned with who has the most money to spend. The generation, that are now retiring, boasted in the 90s and noughties that they would not tighten the belt and accept a reduced standard of living upon retirement as previous generations of pensioner had done. No they bragged that they would use their huge voting block to force Governments to swing policy and money in their favour.

Now in 2010 when they are retiring, the tactics have changed somewhat. They have realised that boasting about their continued wealth would not work in their favour. They now hijack stories of genuine poverty amongst older pensioners to demand benefits that they coincidentally will also recieve. Very hypocritical as these retiring pensioners are the generation that the caused the poverty of older pensioners. Funny how they did not see means tested benefits and a pension not linked to the index as a problem until they were passed the finishing line.

Read Papas comments he wants all pensioners to stick together, where was Papas generations solidarity to our now older pensioners  in 1980 and the following thirty years. Were they campaigning in Trafalgar Square when the index pension link was broken or were they rubbing their greedy hands together for the low income taxes/NI it would help enable.

Not blood David, just fairness.

[Papaumau]

Nope still no suggestions from those in their sixties as to how they should share in the pain of the recession.

Once again I will say, ( wondering if I am EVER going to get through ), that that demographic - which you clump all together without even trying to see that most of them are living on the breadline - are unable to fairly "share in the pain of the recession".

Why the hell should these poor folks have to take ANY share of any of this when it was not them that contributed to it in the first place and because there are still many millions of fat-cats and people with "loadsa money" salted away where the taxman cannot get at it.

Over an above that we have a government that is STILL willing to chuck taxpayers cash at pet projects and in expensive and wasteful directions that could easily pay for the so-called deficit. ( Here is just two: Trident and Quangos ).

We should get our heads together and NOT LET THEM target the poor and the weak and the old of this country.

How many times have I got to say this before the message gets through ?

[John Sheffield]

Why let facts get in the way of your silly rants Papa. Why do you have so little regard for facts. Why do you value facts so little, but your opinion so much?

Although, of course, there are many individual baby boomers living on the breadline and in need of assistance, its also a FACT that the current generation around retirement age have NEVER been so wealthy as a whole. Currently people in their 60s have NEVER owned a bigger proportion of the nations wealth. These are FACTS. My opinion or your opinion doesn't alter these FACTS. People in theirs 60s have never been so wealthy, never had such big disposable incomes.

I've come down to your level and started CAPITALISING words. Sound arguments and facts don't need capitalising. That's me done.

(still no sugestion with regard to how people aged 55-68 should share in the pain of the recession)

This a is a cheap parting shot, but here goes. Go to the yahoo search engine and start typing the word pensioners. Based on previous search entry history Yahoo has a predictive text feature, this is what comes up.

Cold weather payments for
Winter fuel allowance for
Free bus passes for
chelsea
winter fuel payments for
heating allowance
benefits for


Says it all. Out.

[Papaumau]

DOING IT AGAIN !......by saying "people" you are stereotyping all of us in your own narrow imagination !

I deny your "facts" as you have yet to give me - or anybody else - any proof about the "fact" that most or all of the baby-boomers, ( who are now pensioners ), are the "majority owners of the nation's wealth". In fact that statement is so silly that it is risible to any of us that know better.

A prominent economist once said that "seventy-percent of the nation's wealth was in the hands and controlled by thirty percent of the population and that the remaining thirty per-cent of this wealth had to be shared around the seventy-percent of the population!"

I can tell you that the pensioners of this country are more inclined to be in that poorer seventy percent of the population than in that rich thirty percent.

Rather than using your imagination and stereotyping all of the pensioners in Britain you might do well to visit this website, read it all, and get some REAL facts, before chucking such wild accusations at the generally poorest sector of our society.

Here it is: http://www.jrf.org.uk/publications/poverty-and-wealth-across-britain-1968-2005