open question to the 60s

[avalonmpk]

Fact: most baby boomers drink, drive cars, burn fossil fuels, and are in debt to credit card companies - all by choice. Why should us older people who have been prudent, worked hard, stood on our own feet and spent our early years without a welfare state pay for this self centered generation? They are the ones who pushed the country into debt and they come from all across the political  spectrum

[John Sheffield]

Extract from

http://www.greymattersresearch.co.uk/information%20about%20the%20over%2050s.html

-Over 50s own more than 75% of the countrys wealth
-Per capita the over 50-74 age group spend more on food, drink & recreation than any other age group
-80% own their own home
-Over 50s have more than  twice the disposable income of younger people

These facts are from a marketing company. No bias, they just advice where the money is.

[avalonmpk]

John S. your quote is inaccurate - it's been spun - al la Blair & Brown - the 80% figure actually refers to the people who own their their own home or are purchasing their own home on mortgage. (Home office figures)
As for the 'wealth' this is down to the education we received - remember Mr Micawber!
We also pay the most taxes - are the most victims of serious crimes.
We give the most unpaid service to our country.
We were brought up before the age of the CREDIT card card - I've never had one what the hell use are they
they just cause misery to the people who use them. £26,000 in debt for every man woman and child in the country - Less than 12% are pensioners - so the average winger must be in debt to a greater extent.
No wonder the country is in such a mess.For pity's sake learn to save for a rainy day!

[Papaumau]

Fact: most baby boomers drink, drive cars, burn fossil fuels, and are in debt to credit card companies - all by choice. Why should us older people who have been prudent, worked hard, stood on our own feet and spent our early years without a welfare state pay for this self centered generation? They are the ones who pushed the country into debt and they come from all across the political  spectrum

You cannot say "MOST" just like that as that is not the case !

I would agree that some, ( a very small percentage ), of these people are rich enough to be able to do what they want without effort but in the main the British pensioners of today, ( baby-boomers or not ), are struggling, just like the rest of us, to simple subsist.

Are you trying to say that because the poor of this group ARE poor that they should not try to be able to have some kind of a reasonable life ?

That sounds as if you are saying that the poor pensioners should just sit in the house huddled around their one-bar electric fires waiting to die.

Surprisingly to some, that DOES actually happen in many cases.

[Papaumau]

Extract from

http://www.greymattersresearch.co.uk/information%20about%20the%20over%2050s.html

-Over 50s own more than 75% of the countrys wealth
-Per capita the over 50-74 age group spend more on food, drink & recreation than any other age group
-80% own their own home
-Over 50s have more than  twice the disposable income of younger people

These facts are from a marketing company. No bias, they just advice where the money is.

I am not surprised that you jumped on that SINGLE example of how rich we all are when one considers that these two people - who make up "Grey-matters" are attempting to direct companies to target the rich section of this group.

I cannot imagine where they got that data from as it is patently untrue.

Maybe these two should spend a bit of time down amongst the pensioners of Britain as I do and then they would very soon realise that what they are saying is simply wrong and disgustingly misleading.

Here is another story from the Tory-supporting Daily Mail that tells us some home truths: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1246448/Two-million-pensioners-living-poverty--half-unable-afford-heating.html

I guess that people like you that have made up their minds about the baby-boomers are only ever going to see what they want to see. Sometimes it is good to widen one's perspective.

[John L]

John, some of the bankers may well have been 60's baby boomers but most of the top bankers that I've seen on TV were fresh-faced 40-year-olds.
Anyway even if all the bankers were baby boomers your argument that all pensioners should pay the price for the actions of a handful of bankers is akin to saying we shouldn't help ordinary Pakistanis  because of the actions of a few militants.

[avalonmpk]

I can say most - it is a physical fact - if you spend money on a credit card you are in debt to the card company ( the average amount which I am now told is nearer £27K!!!) - you will be in debt unless you settle the account daily. Which is physically impossible.
According to last 'government'  and it's Lefty Lunacy I'm below the poverty line! Disposable income below £9K It is absolute rubbish, I have everything that I kneed and most things that I desire. It's easy don't spend money you have not got - and don't sponge of your fellow citizens, save for a rainy day, and be honest to yourself and those around you and from my point of view without the opiate of religion!!!!!!

[Papaumau]

Heck, in the real world if you are earning less than £9k you ARE well below the poverty line.

I would go further and say that if you are earning less than £25k per annum you are struggling to pay a medium mortgage or your energy bills.

Just because some wonderful oldies are able to survive on the pittance they get of a state pension does not mean that that situation is right !

Either looking at the state of Britain through rose-tinted glasses or only seeing what you want to see is NO WAY to measure what is actually happening !

[Hells Granny]

Hello John,

As a widowed pensioner on a basic pension, I really think I am doing all I can to help the economy, with the increased  bills I pay.

Yes, I do own a house, but the maintenance costs are high.

I do not smoke.

I do not gamble.

I rarely drink alcohol.

I haven't had a holiday in 20 years.

I do not have a car.

I have no social life.

I am just outside the Pension Credit band, so I get no help with anything, except free eye tests and free prescriptions.

So, How do you think I can help the Government out of the hole that Brown put us in?

I await your answer with interest.

Cheers, HG

[Papaumau]

Well said HG !

I somehow think that our John or Avalonmpk will avoid those questions like the plague.

I will not be surprised if you are now deafened by the silence !

[GrannyMac]

I've just picked up on one line of Hells Granny's post:  'I am just outside the Pension Credit band'.

My OH and I are both coming up to 65.  He'll have only a basic state pension, I have a reduced state pension and a small company pension.  All together, its over pension credit level - but not by much. 

I believe all pensioners should get the equivalent of pension credit as the minimum basic pension.  Those with above average incomes would pay tax on it anyway, and the rest of us would get a fairer deal.  It would also save a fortune in the administration of means tested benefits.  When women of our age group were young we didn't get NI credits for being at home looking after the children, and we didn't sign on when we were at home because we weren't 'actively seeking work'.   

By trying to take responsibility for our retirement, many pensioners will see themselves only marginally better off than those who didn't.  I am aware there are those who couldn't, but they should always be looked after.

[Papaumau]

It's really great to have you onboard as a supporter, as me and Ivanhoe and HG have been saying as much for a long time here.

Even the Tories - who have not been keen on spending taxpayers money on pensions in the past - are now admitting that a decent "Citizen's Pension", ( as it is to be called ),  that is based on a percentage of all of the extra benefits that the very poor get via means testing would be a good and cost-effective way to go, as afterwards the costly means-testing procedures could be reduced to a very small outlay.

How long it will take them to bring this in I don't know but the idea was right at the top of the Liberal Democrat's manifesto before they threw their lot in with the Tories in the CONDEM coalition.

We are all going to have to watch this one very closely !

[Hells Granny]

The only reason I am just outside Pension Credit limit is the Earnings Related Supplement which I inherited from my late Husband.

[Chrisjay]

Nope still no suggestions from those in their sixties as to how they should share in the pain of the recession.

Do a little research David G. Whilst pensioner poverty is still an issue (and always will be), its also a fact that younger pensioners or near pensioners say 55-70 have never owed a bigger proportion of the nations wealth and have never had such big disposable incomes. Hundreds of thousands are on secure guaranteed final salary pensions - now denied to younger workers

Hopefully, unlike Papa, you will be able to distinguish between facts and opinions. The points above are not my opinions, they are mathematical facts. Don't take my word for it, view these facts on the ONS website. Alternatively read some recent market research reports, they will all advise that that products should be increasing marketed at the over 50s as they have much bigger disposable incomes than ever before.

Market research reports are not concerned with politics, right/left or wrong/right they are concerned with who has the most money to spend. The generation, that are now retiring, boasted in the 90s and noughties that they would not tighten the belt and accept a reduced standard of living upon retirement as previous generations of pensioner had done. No they bragged that they would use their huge voting block to force Governments to swing policy and money in their favour.

Now in 2010 when they are retiring, the tactics have changed somewhat. They have realised that boasting about their continued wealth would not work in their favour. They now hijack stories of genuine poverty amongst older pensioners to demand benefits that they coincidentally will also recieve. Very hypocritical as these retiring pensioners are the generation that the caused the poverty of older pensioners. Funny how they did not see means tested benefits and a pension not linked to the index as a problem until they were passed the finishing line.

Read Papas comments he wants all pensioners to stick together, where was Papas generations solidarity to our now older pensioners  in 1980 and the following thirty years. Were they campaigning in Trafalgar Square when the index pension link was broken or were they rubbing their greedy hands together for the low income taxes/NI it would help enable.

Not blood David, just fairness.

I will reply to the has anyone got any suggestions?  Well I have get rid of pension credit and all the other add on's and the money saved in admistration would be enough to restore the link between pensions and wages and then older people could live out their lives with dignity.

If that does not interest bring in euthinasia then those who choose to leave this world with their dignity intact can

Chris

[Papaumau]

Chris Said:

I will reply to the has anyone got any suggestions?  Well I have get rid of pension credit and all the other add on's and the money saved in admistration would be enough to restore the link between pensions and wages and then older people could live out their lives with dignity.

If that does not interest bring in euthinasia then those who choose to leave this world with their dignity intact can

Chris

And I say.....

That is what they are intending to do Chris; getting rid of the "add-ons" and then paying what they will call the "citizen's pension".

I worry that once they have stopped paying the extras that the finalised "citizens pension" will not actually finish up with the pensioners getting any more money.

The euthanasia idea is a completely different subject and while I support this idea I also worry that because this is a very complex subject to get right they will NEVER do it.