'Red Ed' and Pensioners

[Papaumau]

NO....I meant "switched on" to what is available to them in every aspect of life in Britain.

Many elderly people are either not in the know because they are not interested or because they are just not in the position to get that information. They are also - in many cases - terrified of anything electronic, such as computers and are also terrified to even ask for a means-test claim form from the local authorities as they either do not understand all of the interrogation that goes on in them or they are too proud to even ask for such help.

This is a situation that is very wrong as elderly people should NEVER do anything or not do anything out of FEAR and if the local social work departments are doing their job properly they should be making these enquiries and they should be filling in these phone-book-sized tomes for the people who are due the help, without the need for these vulnerable people to even ask for it.

[Ivanhoe]

//////NO....I meant "switched on" to what is available to them in every aspect of life in Britain.////

The majority of pensioners would rather have a dignified State pension, than be means tested for handouts.

[Papaumau]

I am sure you are right, but do you think that the likes of The Queen or anybody else from that strata in our society should get that money if they don't need it ? 

The only way that I know of to ensure that the money goes to where it is needed is if it is means-tested in some way. I would even be happy if everybody that had less than say forty-thousand pounds a year income while a pensioner got this "dignified state pension" so that all of the people above this figure did not get it. ( Then they might be able to afford - via this large saving - to pay the people with no other income your £200.00 a week "citizen's" pension ).

That, my friend, would just be good common sense, don't you think ?

That would be based on one simple rule and would not need a phone-book-sized application form filled in to be able to get it.

[Ivanhoe]

//I am sure you are right, but do you think that the likes of The Queen or anybody else from that strata in our society should get that money if they don't need it ?  /////

The State pension should be regarded as a right based on a working life of contributions, and yes, millionaires should get it, they have paid into the system as well

[Papaumau]

The main desire built into the payment of family allowance was that it go directly to the children - who need it - and the idea behind means-tested payments to the elderly was that it would be paid out to the elderly that need it too. ( In many cases these payments to the rich go straight into the bank or the offshore account or towards the private school fees as they do not actually need to cash them in to make their children's or their elderly's lives better.

The whole system is based around NEED, not GREED and that is why I say that a more greatly-simplified means-test would do that with little fuss so that the money saved via this simplicity could then go to the people that really need it.

The "citizen's pension" that is talked about across the parties will eventually be seen to be an absolute minimum that will be small enough so as to keep the pensioners from literally starving but will be good for little else. Your £200.00 a week will not be the figure that this citizen's pension will be set at. You can be sure of that !

The ones that will get it that don't need it will simply chuck it into the bank and forget about it.

[Ivanhoe]

Papaumau, Do you think that £97 a week is a fitting enough State pension to pay people who have worked hard all their lives and paid into the system ?

[Papaumau]

You seem to miss my point Ivanhoe !

That is a whole different subject altogether !

Of course I think that the elderly people at the bottom end should get a "living pension" and I actually agree that £200.00 a week would be a figure that would do that job. No argument there !

What I am saying is that if this so-called "citizen's pension" - that they are all raving about - is ever set at anything near £200.00 a week FOR EVERYBODY old enough to qualify, this is going to cost the rest of the taxpayers a lot of money.

We have to remember that it is the ones still in employment and paying their employed-person taxes that fund the state pension and as more and more of us become available to claim that pension and more and more of us are living much longer, it has been suggested that very soon there will be more people getting a state pension than there are actually earning.

This will leave a big black hole in the treasury and successive governments are going to find that it will be very hard to be able to find that money from the usual places.

THAT is why I say that whatever the level this "citizen's pension" is to be set at, it should NOT be paid out to those at the very upper levels that do not need it.

That, to me, seems like plain common sense !

[Ivanhoe]

//////this is going to cost the rest of the taxpayers a lot of money.////

So does foreign wars, so does funding into the EU, so does foreign aid.

[Papaumau]

Three wrongs never made one right !

I usually call on that retort when people bring out other examples of injustice to somehow try to ameliorate the original one.

[Ivanhoe]

/////Three wrongs never made one right !

I usually call on that retort when people bring out other examples of injustice to somehow try to ameliorate the original one./////

The point im making Papaumau, is that Britain is a rich country, there is no need to means test pensioners.

 

[Papaumau]

And I will say AGAIN....That while I agree that Britain IS a rich country I will also say that these riches are not in the hands of the government.

If taxation and the sourcing out of hidden wealth was done better we might see some more of this wealth being available to be spent on good causes.

As we really have to agree that the amount of money available to the treasury is finite we then have to also agree what are the best ways to spend this "finite" resource.

I do not and will never accept that such monies should be spent making ultra-rich people even more rich. They do not NEED that money but the bottom ten percent do.

[Ivanhoe]

///////I do not and will never accept that such monies should be spent making ultra-rich people even more rich. They do not NEED that money but the bottom ten percent do.////

And I again say to you that paying out a decent state pension should not be based on "need" , it should be based on "right., because all pensioners rich and poor have paid in for such a pension through their long working lives.

[Papaumau]

As I guess you will never be able to see the idea that paying out money to people that don't need it is a bad thing to do, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I am sure that even although you are not going to get your wish of £200.00 per week for each pensioner you will find that a green paper to be introduced before the end of the year WILL get rid of your means test and raise the so-called "citizen's pension to a more practical level.

See this posting I started on my own forum today:

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Government ministers are working on simplifying the state pension so that the much-vaunted "citizen's pension" can be introduced.

They are planning to have a green paper issued within the year to this end.

It has been suggested that as the means test will be scrapped and that no top-ups will be needing to be paid for the very poor, the treasury could save up to £6 billion a year by cutting this expensive bureaucracy.

All single pensioners are to receive £140.00 per week and married couples will receive £280.00 a week. This will make the annual income of all British pensioners up to £7,280 for a single person and £14,560 for a married couple.

See THIS from The Guardian.


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A step in the right direction, but still not what anyone could describe as "generous".

Anybody ?

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Find it HERE

[Ivanhoe]

Papaumau, This State pension increase has a flaw.  It's far too low.

With the Pensions Credit for the poorest pensions , pensioners get loads of other benefits that far outweigh in cost, more than this miserable increase should it happen before the next Parliament.

Your elation is noted, but premature.

[Papaumau]

You saw something that was not there my friend ! I was NOT "elated" by this figure of £140.00 per week as I too believe that without all of the attached add-ons, ( especially housing benefit ), this flat figure will leave many very poor pensioners homeless.

I agree that a figure of £200.00 per person - flat rate - might be a better figure, but I am unable to imagine where they might find the finances to pay for such a flat-rate state pension.

That is why I say that they should STILL keep just one rule, ( which would be easy and cheap to administrate ); that of NOT paying such an enhanced pension to anybody that earns say £40,000 per annum.

If they did this they could set the minimum "citizens pension", ( that EVERYBODY could get ), at around £100.00 per week and the cash saved on the enhanced figure not paid to the already-rich could finance the difference up to your imaginary figure of £200.00 per week for the ones who need it.