Minimum Wage

[Papaumau]

We are sliding away from the topic a bit here and I think that we should spend more time actually looking at why the minimum wage should exist.

The whole idea behind this smallest wage was so that people who want to work are willing to take work that allows them to live a life that is not below the poverty line.

I know I am repeating myself here but this point is very important.

I agree with Ivanhoe that the means test is divisive as it sets people at similar levels against each-other when some get benefits and some don't and this is set at some arbitrary level that means that the ones who might want to work are still encouraged not to if they can claim all of the benefits that are going. This situation definitely needs fixing !

We should not be worried that employers are required to pay the minimum wage as that is their problem, not ours. We should only care that the ones that ARE working are not being paid slave wages.

It IS true that many illegals are willing to work for crooked gangmasters for less than the minimum wage and while this does ensure that many companies are more competetive it also means that there are a lot of people out there that are slipping through the protective net of the minimum wage.  This is just wrong no matter how you look at it.

[Chrisjay]

The minimum wage in Hong Kong is less than £2 per hour which is why we will never compete in the manufacturing global market ever again.

I am not saying we should not have a minimum wage just that we cannot compete with other countries who costs are so much lower and really one of the other reasons we cannot compete is the EU restictions on employers and the benefits they must provide like maternity and paternity leave and the 7 day self cert for sickness.

[caminito]

Quote...
Adam Smith, the Wealth of Nations

    * Switch in output towards higher value-added manufacturing which is less price and cost sensitive
    * Increased investment in employee skills and in research and investment - The UK is deficient in areas of medium/high skills. Our vocational skills are at the lowest levels in the EU apart from Estonia . And R&D spending as a share of GDP is too low, In the UK, just two companies, both pharmaceuticals, undertakes 25% of total R&D spend.
    * Emphasis on raising productivity – according to a recent study by McKinsey (2003) manufacturing has £280 billion in capital invested - its challenge is to improve the return (profit) it gets on that investment.
    * Greater focus on non-price competition – including importance of innovation and design – note the quote below from William Baumol (“The Free Market Innovation Machine”) - “Under capitalism, innovative activity - which in other types of economy is fortuitous and optional - becomes mandatory, a life and death matter for the firm."
    * Increased investment in emerging manufacturing technologies – including biotechnology and nanotechnology

[Chrisjay]

And your reply is?

[caminito]

My reply ..
As you rightly stated , we must have a minimum wage but...
Wages in the far east and easten europe are even lower so..
We cannot compete with the mass production , low wage output of these areas  Therefore ...
The UK must become a high tech , highly skilled manufacturing country , where...
Price of finished articles are not so price sensitive

This requires our workforce to be better educated ..
Companies must invest more in R & D ..
Government should provide initiative , grants and support to these objectives ..

Unfortunately , 1 in 5 school leavers at the present time are unable to read , write or do simple arithmetic properly !
Recent statistics show that the age group of 16-24 yr old unemployed people , who do not have a decent education  or any qualifications , are unlikely to find work in the present economic climate.

Also ,  manufacturing has been declining in the UK for 40 yrs or more.
The service industries are still expanding . These require an educated workforce otherwise some of these will look abroad to recruit ?
Technology makes this possible .. Once we had call centres in the UK !
Times have changed dramatically and the UK must change !
That's what the quote from the article was stating !

Ps As examples ..
Portugal has now lost most of its clothing and shoe wear production to China , India etc . and their wages are a lot lower than the UK
minimum wage
Spain is in the same position . A good monthly wage is max 1000 euros . Still not low enough to compete with the new production areas
of China , Indonesia, Malaysia etc and with the easten bloc countries !
 

 

[Chrisjay]

Yes and what is noticeable about all these countries apart from the UK is all students learn a second language which is why call centres can be moved to China and Pakistan and Indonesia etc.

Our education system does not enable young people to compete in a global market and the UK has always had the ego that the rest of the world will learn English which is now coming back to bite them in the bum as more and more business is moved abroad or services supplied from abroad which would traditionally have been inhouse.

[Papaumau]

Yes Chris,  those countries that DO have a minimum wage, ( and they are few and far between in the third world ), have their minmum wage set at the requirement that is needed there to ensure that this wage suits the cost of living of that particular country.

Our minimum wage - in my opinion - is set far too low as  - as you and GrannieMac pointed out - there are times when even this present level of minimum wage just does not do the job it was created to do.

All companies that provide employment have to ensure that their employees have decent wages and conditions and they do not do this voluntarily; they have to be forced by regulations and by pressure from the unions to play fair with their employees.

We are able, or should be able, to compete in countries that have the same cost of living and the same standards of living as all of these countries pay their employees a similar living wage. This means that the overheads for employers are the same or similar in every advanced Western country with which we trade.

We simply cannot compete with the third world or with the tiger economies as they have nationally very low overheads which enables them to beat us hands down in the export trades. Until these countries start to have the same levels of cost of living and standards of living for their low-paid workers they will always be able to beat us at manufacturing costs.

[caminito]

The present minimum wage is low . To low to enable most people to live a decent existance.
Many/most are probably better off to be on benefits or to work cash in hand.

How does the UK afford to increase this  minimum hourly wage when we are already to expensive compared to asia etc.
I have noticed that many people are working cash in hand these days.
Services that I use occasionally like car valeting . window cleaning , house cleaning ,gardening etc are all cash payments and I reckon about £12 per hour !

Chris was correct in my opinion about the British being lazy to learn another language.
Probably Spanish would be a good choice because it is latin based and widely used throughout the world.
Technology and sciences are mainly English based , thank goodness !

A question .......why ,with all the money being spent on education in the UK , are we still not producing enough school leavers with a decent standard
Is it the system , the teachers , the parents who are at fault.
The UK desperately needs to  produce an educated work force for the future !

[Ivanhoe]

Papaumau, Re- MINIMUM WAGE.

Under the former Thatcher Major Government's minimum wages were abolished in favour of poverty pay, and all our vital services, including education were crassly under funded.

New Labour under Blair and Brown did nothing in their 13 years to reverse any of Thatcher's fundamental policies.

The Tory lead coalition are continuing with Thatcher's legacy, our Students now are having to cope with the knowledge that they are in debt to the Government, it's that knowledge that Clegg and his ministers cannot grab the concept of, it doesnt matter how high the threshold maybe.

[Papaumau]

Papaumau, Re- MINIMUM WAGE.

Under the former Thatcher Major Government's minimum wages were abolished in favour of poverty pay, and all our vital services, including education were crassly under funded.

New Labour under Blair and Brown did nothing in their 13 years to reverse any of Thatcher's fundamental policies.

The Tory lead coalition are continuing with Thatcher's legacy, our Students now are having to cope with the knowledge that they are in debt to the Government, it's that knowledge that Clegg and his ministers cannot grab the concept of, it doesnt matter how high the threshold maybe.

I do not remember the Tories under Thatcher or Major actually "abolishing" the minimum wage but I do know that the Tories have fought tooth and nail to try to stop it being introduced in the first place. It WAS the Labour government in 1998 that introduced this minimum wage first here in Britain.

Without a fixed and enforced minimum wage applied in any developed country we would see the employers being tempted to attempt to reduce wages to peasant levels so that they could be more competetive with exports from third world countries. This desire is simply ridiculous as we do NOT have a peasant population in the developed Western world.

It is totally foolish to expect people at the bottom of the wages list to be expected to work for less than they can subsist on in any country that has a high standard and especially a HIGH COST of living.

[Ivanhoe]

///////I do not remember the Tories under Thatcher or Major actually "abolishing" the minimum wage ///////

Papaumau, When Thatcher took office in 1979, she abolished Winston Churchill's Wages Councils that had been set in place in 1909.

This move dissolved mimumum wage regulation and allowed firms and business to pay what wages they liked.

And yes, New Labour did bring in a minumum wage from 1997.

[cheddar-caveman]

I have worked most of my life overseas on contracts. I think it high time we did the same here and get away from all this industrial action caused by moaners who, at the drop of a hat, go out on strike.

You are offered the job, and a contract. You read the contract, negotiate a bit if need be, then sign it. One year later you are offered an extension to your contract. If you don't like it, thenm try to negotiate and if you still don't like it, get out!

By far the fairest method of employment for both employer and employee. The employer has a garanteed workforce for a known time, with no fear of interuptions from strikes, and the emploiyees have a wage/conditions they are happy with (or they shouldn't have signed the contract).

No need for fat cat union bosses to rule the country, and getting rich for their troubles and that has to be good for everybody.

[Papaumau]

///////I do not remember the Tories under Thatcher or Major actually "abolishing" the minimum wage ///////

Papaumau, When Thatcher took office in 1979, she abolished Winston Churchill's Wages Councils that had been set in place in 1909.

This move dissolved mimumum wage regulation and allowed firms and business to pay what wages they liked.

And yes, New Labour did bring in a minumum wage from 1997.

Ivanhoe, I think you are confusing the "Fair Wages Resolution" of 1891 and the Tory Wages Councils with the actual statutory minimum wage.

The early attempts to make wages fair for the earners at the bottom were worked at through the "Collective bargaining" deal but as that was found not to work there was nothing done further to try to enforce a true minimum wage. This only happened when the Labour party eventually drew up a FIXED amount for the national minimum wage in 1997.

For yours and others information: HERE is a full history of the attempts at setting a minimum wage in Britain.

It is in PDF format, so you will need a copy of Adobe Acrobat Reader resident on your computer in order to be able to read it !

[Chrisjay]

My goodness you mean there is actually something in our history she was not responsible for now I am cheered :-)

[caminito]

me too !