Author Topic: Could much needed funds be created easily without further burden on the young???  (Read 8811 times)

brian54

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There has never been any shortage of suggestions & proposals that adversely affect those who've made provision for their old age by paying into a private pension scheme.


Look for savings from people without provision for their old age.
Sell off council houses.
Stop all benefits.
Don't heat jails.

sparky

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Introduce a dog licence of £100 a year for the first dog and £1000 a year for the second,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, doubled if they have silly human names.

Undercover Pensioner

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 ;D - sparky
The vote for Brexit was a vote to take back what we hadn't lost in order to lose what we actually have.

brian54

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Why not means test via the tax system, treat all these "perks" as income. Hence the more well off pensioners would loose either 20% or 40% of their winter fuel allowance via tax. Put a monetary value on the bus pass and if you have one add that value to your income. This way less well off pensioners who do not pay tax will get the full benefit while others who already pay tax will loose a proportion of the "perk".


I am likely to return my bus pass if they taxed it.
I take friends and relatives to hospitals etc.
I have used my pensioners pass 3 times this year.

Phil

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Regarding your suggestions for the heating allowance, I would be happy to support the withdrawal of these in some circumstances.   But the cut-off point you have set at £15,000 pa is far, far too low.  And making it before tax makes it ridiculously low.  Either raise that to around £25,000 before tax, or maybe £22,000 after tax [which is still low, but manageable].  Taking from pensioners who are barely over the pension credit limit amounts to theft/stealing in my book. They are already paying their way and the bigger the pension they have, the bigger contribution they are making, a contribution they have made all of their working lives.   


Well said.

It's totally ridiculous to base any means-testing on a gross income because we can't spend the godamned dosh that HMRC take off us!!!!!!!!

Pension Credit recipients incomes are net.
"I've stopped arguing with idiots. They will only bring me down to their level and beat me with experience.”

Paraphrased from George Carlin

busylizzie

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Thanks for all the replies.  In response to Stellamaris, I'm not a representative or member of a group but just a grandmother (and a recent great grandmother) and my apologies for having suggested too low a cut-off figure. Also I do agree that (a) successive governments of every political hue, instead of investing surplus National Insurance contributions that we paid all our working lives, have squandered it on whatever happened to be 'top of their list' at the time, so that there is now a crisis as regards the funding for the future and (b) that there is a marked difference between the way the young live now compared with the way that we lived. I have seen my daughter throw away the remains of a perfectly good joint of meat because 'they didn't want to eat it again'. In fact I said I would take it home (which I did) and turned it into two meals. Family holidays, often abroad, now seem to be the norm, along with dishwashers and regular Take-Aways or visits to Prezzo's and Pizza Hut plus the latest smartphone, TV etc etc.  Yes, I understand all of that but changing a culture can't be achieved quickly. Nor can revision of the welfare system but an income limit for receipt of the Christmas bonus and the fuel allowance could.  It would provide an immediate injection of funds for the Exchequer and would (hopefully) silence the press who seem to be determined to create a rift between the old and the young by persistently pointing a finger at the triple lock, without ever putting the other side of the story. It was just a thought and I was interested to see whether anyone else agreed.  

brian54

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I was annoyed once where a man complained he could not save for a pension.
It turned out he was divorced and supporting 2 families.
He knew from where my wife and myself worked I would have a widows pension.
He said income should be distributed in accordance with your outgoings and he said he should have more than me because of his higher expenditure.
He also said the only people who did proper jobs were builders, plumbers and electricians and they should be the only ones who are paid.
I must ask if his child needed an operation would a builder be able to do the operation or if a fire broke out on a site would a builder not need the fire service?.
What did amaze me he told me he smokes 30 cigarettes a day. I noticed they were £10 a packet in the supermarket.
If he gave up smoking he would have £5,475 per year to put in to a pension.
He disagreed and said smokers should get extra tax allowances and pension.

stellamaris

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Hello again busylizzie.  Sorry that I was presuming too much in thinking your post was more than it was.  In truth I was hoping it was, hence the tone of "addressing an audience" in my post. Congratulations on becoming a great grandmother - I think I will have turned up my toes before it happens to me, if my 20 something grandchildren carry on thinking the way they do.


Your post was very interesting and I agree that a rift is being caused.  I don't know where this is coming from other than politics [and perhaps envy],  because every family I know is very protective towards their older generations.   I think it's the popular narrative that if you don't need to claim pension credit then you are rich enough to make big donations to those that do.   Which is far from the truth.   A self-sufficient grandparent brings joy to the world around them in my opinion.  It takes away some of the stress on the younger generation to keep going in a difficult world.  I am all for people making a fair contribution but I do take issue on where the 'fair' line is drawn.


I hope you will keep on posting because you so obviously have the knack of open discussion [there I go again being presumptuous  :-[ ]
Keep on chooglin' - John Fogerty
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Phil

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Hello again busylizzie.  Sorry that I was presuming too much in thinking your post was more than it was.  In truth I was hoping it was, hence the tone of "addressing an audience" in my post. Congratulations on becoming a great grandmother - I think I will have turned up my toes before it happens to me, if my 20 something grandchildren carry on thinking the way they do.

Your post was very interesting and I agree that a rift is being caused.  I don't know where this is coming from other than politics [and perhaps envy],  because every family I know is very protective towards their older generations.   I think it's the popular narrative that if you don't need to claim pension credit then you are rich enough to make big donations to those that do.   Which is far from the truth.   A self-sufficient grandparent brings joy to the world around them in my opinion.  It takes away some of the stress on the younger generation to keep going in a difficult world.  I am all for people making a fair contribution but I do take issue on where the 'fair' line is drawn.

I hope you will keep on posting because you so obviously have the knack of open discussion [there I go again being presumptuous  :-[ ]

Again, well said.

People need to realise that every time a benefit or perk is taken away from the prudent who have saved or paid into a private pension fund, the incentive to save or pay into a retirement fund diminishes.
"I've stopped arguing with idiots. They will only bring me down to their level and beat me with experience.”

Paraphrased from George Carlin

Undercover Pensioner

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Busylizzie, I agree with stellamaris and Phil that, although we seem to have got rid of the time when large numbers of pensioners retired in absolute poverty by the introduction of Pension Credits, the Credits system has severe weaknesses.  In the pension system, for instance, it does not bring the poorest over the poverty level so additional benefits have to be paid. 

Because the credits system acts as a automatic gateway to these benefits the very poorest of pensioners will have their income topped up, by way of Council Tax Benefit, Cold Weather Payment, NHS Low Income Benefit, help with ground rent and service charges and rent or help with mortgage interest payments (although the help with mortgage interest payments is changing).  These all go towards ensuring the very poorest have a relatively reasonable income.

There is then a second tranche of people who are just above the Pension Credit level who do not automatically get the supplementary benefits.  They may be eligible for some, all or none but they will have to apply to find out which is the case.  It is those in the greatest need at this level who are most likely to be unable to do this or understand the complexities of the system and may miss out because of this.  Savings can also take them out of the eligibility band.

The very benefits you talk about taking away are the ones that are valued by both the groups I have described above.  They come automatically, they are universal so no shame is attached - and shame or a sense of not being dependant does still stop people claiming - and they make a difference to people on these levels of income. 

One of the things we could do - and can you imagine how large the savings would in administration - is to raise the pension to the living level (usually, in recent times, about the personal tax allowance level) and make it universal or, as I said before and very much what GrannyMac was saying, a Universal Basic Pension.  Many countries are looking at Universal Basic Income for their citizens and this is often seen as a good place to start and I believe (although haven't researched it) a few already have a universal basic pension. 

Tax would then need to be paid on every bit of extra pension as it would be over the personal allowance level but everyone would know that they benefited from the extra they has managed to save but would not be in difficulties if they are, for instance, on a low wage all their lives or sickness and disability stop them saving.

Just taking away the universal benefits as you suggest will, I believe, just make more of a 'them and us' division, with the groups I described believing those on higher incomes simply do not understand their problems  - and we can do without any more divisions in society.
The vote for Brexit was a vote to take back what we hadn't lost in order to lose what we actually have.

BazzerPontefract

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Sometimes I think it only Brian who actually makes sense.
Every pensioner who has income over and above the basic state pension has contributed to that extra income.  Every pensioner who finds themselves living without debt has, generally, made provision for living without debt.  These pensioners have not only made these extra provisions themselves but have contributed throughout their working lives to state pensions and everything else, which is unlike a good many pensioners who receive pensions and benefits to which they have never contributed.  Any pensioner with incomes higher than £10,600 will be paying tax at basic or higher rate, which should be contrasted to some pensioners whose benefits packages takes them above £10,600 but don't pay tax.
I think the system we have currently fair.  How anyone that can count can make the ludicrous suggestion that to lift pensions, benefits and welfare is a zero sum game.
When state pensions were introduced in 1948, those over the age of 60, in the case of women, and 65, in the case of men, could not believe their luck.  70 years later we appear to be moving to a system that becomes counter productive to making provision for oneself.
It is about balance and proportionality - winter fuel allowance and bus passes are universal benefits and should be retained for everyone above pensionable age.  If we don't, we finish up with a distorted system like child benefit which strips away child benefits from higher earners, which in turn removes an incentive to become a higher earner.
Don't mess with something that is fair and reasonable.
Excuse my directness, I've had a drink or two, funded out of a prudent working life.

Undercover Pensioner

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"Sometimes I think it only Brian who actually makes sense."

That is not surprising BazzerPontefract.  From what you have both said you are the two most neo-liberal members of the forum as far as I can see.  You are both entitled to your views but personally I would rather we didn't run the country on the type of views expressed by the two of you.  Others may have different view because that is all it is - a point of view.
The vote for Brexit was a vote to take back what we hadn't lost in order to lose what we actually have.

Phil

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It is about balance and proportionality - winter fuel allowance and bus passes are universal benefits and should be retained for everyone above pensionable age.  If we don't, we finish up with a distorted system like child benefit which strips away child benefits from higher earners, which in turn removes an incentive to become a higher earner.


That's just what my single, high-earning daughter has done.

Fed up with paying over £20,000 per year income tax & NI contributions she's quit her job, sold up & moved back to the North Midlands.

She's been able to buy & renovate a decent house for cash & has already accumulated a good pension pot.

If she struggles to get a job she'll have to claim JSA after her 'leaving her job voluntarily' period has expired.
"I've stopped arguing with idiots. They will only bring me down to their level and beat me with experience.”

Paraphrased from George Carlin

Undercover Pensioner

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I can't work out if you think this is a good thing for your daughter to do or if you don't.  I also can't work out if your daughter has told you she will "claim JSA after her 'leaving her job voluntarily' period has expired." or if that is your assumption.

Interesting.
The vote for Brexit was a vote to take back what we hadn't lost in order to lose what we actually have.

crabbyob

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i think the blame rests squarely on our own shoulders, as children we were taught to be grateful for anything we received, but we brought our children up to reach for and expect more.... the problem now is those ungrateful children are now ruling the world and making rules to suit only them selves....perhaps
“Life may not be the party we hoped for, but as we are already here we may as well dance”