Author Topic: Time For A Second Referendum!  (Read 3607 times)

Coastal

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Re: Time For A Second Referendum!
« Reply #45 on: Feb 13, 2018, 01:20:45 PM »
Were we ever treated as equals .............. more like an ATM  :-[
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xetog

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Re: Time For A Second Referendum!
« Reply #46 on: Feb 13, 2018, 01:26:09 PM »

Whilst I do enjoy the cut and thrust of argument, I must confess that zoony has a good point.  We have pretty much resolved into passionately for and passionately against groups and I confess I am one of those who most would describe as a hard liner as I am passionately for leaving.  Every point has a counter point and I have expressed most of them.  Whilst a good many were undecided and did not vote in the referendum, I doubt whether we would find as many now.  With all the evidence it seems inconceivable that we will not leave as promised as the consequences of not doing so are inconceivable chaos. Imagine for a moment that a second referendum were called and the result were reversed, especially if, as likely, it were to be by a small margin, would there then be a call of 'best of three'?  Leaving the EU may be chaotic, but the chaos of not leaving would leave the country devastated for generations.


Mike. 8)
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JCBDriver

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Re: Time For A Second Referendum!
« Reply #47 on: Feb 13, 2018, 05:02:22 PM »
It's seems rather strange to me that the option is even discussed.

After all when we have a General Election the have that lost dont immediatly start a campain for a re-run do they!
If we are the democats most of us profess to be then the accept it and move on.
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BazzerPontefract

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Re: Time For A Second Referendum!
« Reply #48 on: Feb 13, 2018, 05:17:21 PM »
It's seems rather strange to me that the option is even discussed.

After all when we have a General Election the have that lost dont immediatly start a campain for a re-run do they!
If we are the democats most of us profess to be then the accept it and move on.
JCBDriver,
Odd is it might sound on first hearing this, but the day after a Tory Government is elected, you'll find in places like Liverpool and Glasgow, there'll be organised protests, occupation of public buildings and public spaces, by, admittedly small (a few hundred or so) left-wing agitators.  The sit-ins and such like can last a couple of weeks.
Very few people have any real sense of democracy, as a Remainer wrote on a left-wing blog: Losing the Referendum Vote was like being back in school, but the ones from the remedial class got the Victor Ladorum.
« Last Edit: Feb 13, 2018, 05:22:05 PM by BazzerPontefract »

Ashy

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Re: Time For A Second Referendum!
« Reply #49 on: Feb 13, 2018, 05:24:45 PM »
Rent-a-mob will be out there protesting at every opportunity.
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Undercover Pensioner

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Re: Time For A Second Referendum!
« Reply #50 on: Feb 13, 2018, 07:34:16 PM »
There was an interesting interview on All out Politics on Sky this morning with the co-founder of Our Future our Choice, a campaign group of young people who think Brexit is a disaster and should be stopped.  For those who think it should be there is a crowd funding site here.  It contains a short video which tells you a little about it.


Just a few points from the interview.  The interviewer introduced Femi by saying:

52% of voters may have chosen to leave the European Union but according to data from YouGov those aged between 18 and 24 the vote was actually the vote was actually a huge 75 to 25 majority in favour of remain.

When asked about the majority in the referendum Femi replied:

Right now both Brexit voters and Remain voters aren't happy with the deal currently being negotiated in Brussels.  So it only makes sense that we should have a hand on, take back control of, the process that is currently happening.  We should have a say in whether this deal is going to make our lives worse or better.

When asked if  he was confident that this would reject leaving the European Union:

Well, as I said, the current deal being negotiated isn't seen favourably by anybody and it does require young people to say that this can't happen.  The under 55 population of the UK voted to remain.  So, in five years time, by absolutely anyone's maths, we have a population that voted to remain in the EU.  In that time, will we have completed Brexit?  Will we have all our own laws?  Can you re-legislate the UK in five years? No.  Will we have all our own trade deals?  Can you make trade deals with hundreds of other countries in the world in five years?  No.  So before Brexit is even close to completion we have a population that doesn't want it.  It will no longer be the will of the people and we know that.  It's a hard truth to take but it is the truth. So it is our future.  Whose going to be looking for a job in that economy? Whose going to be raising a family it that economy?  Whose going to be looking for a mortgage in that economy?  It's the people that voted not to have this.

His views on the whether Labour should shift it's position.

Yeah, I think so.  And we need young people.  There's a stereotype that young people don't get involved in politics.  To be honest, I wouldn't have been involved in politics either until 2016, in February when I realised, oh crap, we have been debating this forever and nobody has bothered to explain 'what is the single market' and we can do it in 20 seconds.  The single market is a system whereby you only need to make a single version of whatever you want to sell and it will be legal everywhere in Europe.  That means you can buy and sell your stuff a hell of a lot cheaper.  Now we could have had a conversation on that. We could have had a conversation and informed debate on what the single market is.  Instead, David Cameron chose to just say, 'you need the single market or the zombies will come'.

I have been a bit selective to keep the post shorter but you may be able to watch the interview later - I'm not sure if Sky News does that.  I just felt a little hope that those most affected by this selfish vote will start to fight back and, just a few on here may feel it worth watching.
Poverty exists, not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.

Undercover Pensioner

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Re: Time For A Second Referendum!
« Reply #51 on: Feb 13, 2018, 07:42:09 PM »

Indeed it is odd that some feel the need to dispute documented facts. Perhaps they hope saying something often enough will make it true.

Clips from Cameron, Osbourne, Clegg, Leadsom, Johnson, and Gove towards the end of this video show that it was made clear by both sides that a leave vote meant leaving the single market - https://youtu.be/dghdvVbtowM


Isn't it odd that some don't feel the law counts.  It doesn't matter who said what, the law is still superior to all those you list.  If the majority changed their point of view Parliament could decide to take notice of that fact. 
Poverty exists, not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.

JCBDriver

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Re: Time For A Second Referendum!
« Reply #52 on: Feb 14, 2018, 03:02:54 PM »
It is odd that the remainers still think this is a possibility.

A change of mind by either of the main parties is unlikly as they both campaigned on acceptance of the peoples decision. There is no evidence that the position of the electrate has changed to any substantial degree which would give the parlimentarians just cause.
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StephenM123

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Re: Time For A Second Referendum!
« Reply #53 on: Feb 14, 2018, 03:08:06 PM »
Saw Boris Johnson trying to be conciliatory about Brexit this morning. I am not sure he is helping anything - personally I find him rather disturbing!

Ashy

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Re: Time For A Second Referendum!
« Reply #54 on: Feb 14, 2018, 04:20:56 PM »
As the Prime Minister said in Florence ‘the United Kingdom will cease to be a member of the European Union on 29th March 2019.’ An implementation period does not mean postponing Brexit.

The Government’s position has been very clear - the country voted to leave the EU, and there must be no attempts to remain inside the EU.
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Undercover Pensioner

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Re: Time For A Second Referendum!
« Reply #55 on: Feb 14, 2018, 05:01:36 PM »

I didn't think Boris was talking to me but Ian Dunt was definitely watching the same awful, spineless speech in which BJ said would talk to those who want to remain - and he did for about two seconds - and then re-ran the ever weakening arguments and insults to everyone's intelligence.  https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/963732966672420864  His penultimate comment was Slim pickings. Unfortunately it is too early for gin.  He's not wrong there.


I wonder if you are keeping in touch with the news JCB.  The young are beginning to rise against this, Soros is putting millions into turning it round, I doubt that business will be pleased and what on earth will the anti Brexit politician's in the Tory party think of this little speech!  Add to that the half of the country that didn't want it in the first place and the growing numbers of 'I voted leave but wish it would just go away now' voters and I think/hope some momentum could start to move the strange grouping in parliament who have been trying to force through their personal wishes because "it will make us rich".  If a swing is big enough of course parliament will have to offer a vote on the deal they get.
« Last Edit: Feb 14, 2018, 05:06:31 PM by Undercover Pensioner »
Poverty exists, not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.

BazzerPontefract

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Re: Time For A Second Referendum!
« Reply #56 on: Feb 14, 2018, 07:36:30 PM »
Today’s cult of youth frightens me!
You see it in the Corbynista movement - youth's callous celebration of Corbyn and neo-communism.
Time and again we are given the distinct impression that if a political worldview is backed by the young, then it must be Good, it must be Dynamic, it is Unchallengable.
I think we underplay the dire message this sends to older communities, especially the over-55s: You don’t count. At least, you don't count as much as your grandchildren.
Your old fashioned political viewpoints, honed after years of experience, living through wars, IRA terrorism, Financial Crisis, Unemployment Crisis, Revolutionary activity by Trades Unions,  Three Day Weeks, and Queues to bury the Dead, are THE problem according to the young.   The Old are lesser citizens than Youth.
It is chilling.
But then, cults of youth are always chilling. One thinks of Neitzsche's cry for a youthful race of ‘warriors and serpent-slayers’ to push aside ‘old men’.  Or of the Italian fascist slogan, ‘Make way, you old men!’. Or of the vicious and violent ascendancy of youthful intolerance during Mao's Cultural Revolution.
The Old bowing to the Young.
« Last Edit: Feb 14, 2018, 07:44:22 PM by BazzerPontefract »

xetog

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Re: Time For A Second Referendum!
« Reply #57 on: Feb 14, 2018, 08:45:11 PM »

Britain (UK) is far more than a geographical entity, it is an idea that inspired a people to change the world, arguably a concept that changed how the world saw Britain and the concepts of democracy, honesty and fairness and how the people of a tiny nation showed how hard work and sacrifice could defeat anarchy and totalitarianism.


Many aged have watched this ideal gradually dissolve into sloth and dependency and continue a downward slide and degenerate as many great civilisations have gone before.  It is so easy to sit back and let others take control and think for you.  So easy to borrow and not think how the £billions might be paid back, so easy to let others do the work.


On 29th March 2019 we either rip Britain out of this destructive decline, or surrender ourselves to a failing concept and continue to decline into obscurity by remaining in the EU.  It is dangerous to assume that all youth or all the aged are lined up on one side of this argument, as it is disingenuous to label all the younger generation as slothful and overweight. But we somehow have to reconcile youth who have little experience, but lengthy futures with the elderly who have masses of experience with little future. 


I would suggest that current political solutions are less than inspiring, whatever your politics, none of the current concepts will lead Britain into the future we all want.  The Conservatives have never learned how to control capitalism, whilst Labour are prepared to surrender to anarchy in order to gain a grip on power. I and many of my generation simply want to leave our successors with the potential to build a new future.  We are accused of wanting to turn the clock back which could not be further from the truth.  Europe itself is of the past, an idea that has run out of time and steam.  When I voted to join the Common Market all those years ago, I too was young and politically ignorant.  I did not understand the lies that were being perpetrated by the ruling classes on both sides of the political divide.  My vote this time was an effort to return to values which will give the young the opportunity to develop themselves free of the tentacles of the European hegemony.  Will it benefit me?  Not in the least, but at least my nation might once more hold it's head up high.


Mike. 8)
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crabbyob

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Re: Time For A Second Referendum!
« Reply #58 on: Feb 15, 2018, 01:55:10 AM »
yawn... so the young are not happy [burp] was it ever so?...
they are ready to march.... when the over 55's were young, they also marched, but we wore the British Uniform and marched for the whole country not for the plooky faced who have yet to pay income tax... never mind being a 16 year old voter... lets make them pay tax for a few years before they get to shout how it should be spent.
yes let them squeak but they better pray the over 55's dont march against them
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stellamaris

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Re: Time For A Second Referendum!
« Reply #59 on: Feb 15, 2018, 04:12:03 AM »

It is chilling.
But then, cults of youth are always chilling. One thinks of Neitzsche's cry for a youthful race of ‘warriors and serpent-slayers’ to push aside ‘old men’.  Or of the Italian fascist slogan, ‘Make way, you old men!’. Or of the vicious and violent ascendancy of youthful intolerance during Mao's Cultural Revolution.
The Old bowing to the Young.


These instances come to my mind very often.  I would add in the child soldiers in African states and the middle east.   All horrific examples of how the young are easily manipulated, used and abused to further the aspirations of old men and zealots.  Power without responsibility describes Labour perfectly.


The posts following Bazzer's [xetog and crabbyob] were also excellent and "the plooky faced" will have a prime place in my vocabulary [if I remember it of course]
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