Author Topic: Coming soon to a court near you....  (Read 966 times)

mick607

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #30 on: Apr 11, 2019, 07:42:38 PM »
It is okay to say, in general, what your views are but Whatcott had no right to harass someone personally, neither do you and neither do I.  As for being easily offended and constantly moaning   ::) 
Mumsnet is dealing with a similar issue.  It seems the laws of the land are beginning to be used on-line, at last.  MN are being compelled by the High Court to reveal the identity of a member who has been accused of a campaign of targeted harassment against another member who is transgender.  It will be possible, before very long I feel, to use the laws that would apply anywhere else against online miscreants.  It might be worth understanding the laws around hate speech, racism, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, etc., for the future as, I believe, ignorance of the law is no defence.
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mick607

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #31 on: Apr 11, 2019, 07:44:21 PM »
For most of my young life I was Mickey-Drip The Bean King. Been through the Mick/Mike/Michael stuff (I prefer Michael) but I'm content as Zoony. ;)
When I was an apprentice many moons ago I was called Micky Drippin !
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Dorsetmike

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #32 on: Apr 11, 2019, 08:27:39 PM »
Another Mike here, as most others have posted only Michael to disapproving parents, eldest son answers to Mick. We were both on the same RAF station for a time so it did help identifying one from 'tother.
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xetog

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #33 on: Apr 11, 2019, 10:09:44 PM »

A lot of mucking about on this thread, but to return to the point, essentially, the rule that you must not target anyone with abuse must surely be correct.  Whether anyone with knowledge of an abusers identity should be made legally to reveal their knowledge I think is a far finer moral point.  I guess it depends upon the damage done and whether their protection has encouraged further abuse. I will have to think on that one.


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Diasi

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #34 on: Apr 11, 2019, 10:19:39 PM »
A lot of mucking about on this thread, but to return to the point, essentially, the rule that you must not target anyone with abuse must surely be correct.  Whether anyone with knowledge of an abusers identity should be made legally to reveal their knowledge I think is a far finer moral point.  I guess it depends upon the damage done and whether their protection has encouraged further abuse. I will have to think on that one.

Mike.X

Unfortunately the law in this area is extremely sloppy as it depends on a person's subjective idea of abuse & the law itself is open to abuse by those with axes to grind.

Here's a quick video explaining hate speech.

https://bit.ly/2KwIHXR

But hate speech is a far greater police priority than cases such as these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlNAecgJbro
« Last Edit: Apr 11, 2019, 10:58:20 PM by Diasi »
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Undercover Pensioner

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #35 on: Apr 11, 2019, 11:38:49 PM »

A lot of mucking about on this thread, but to return to the point, essentially, the rule that you must not target anyone with abuse must surely be correct.  Whether anyone with knowledge of an abusers identity should be made legally to reveal their knowledge I think is a far finer moral point.  I guess it depends upon the damage done and whether their protection has encouraged further abuse. I will have to think on that one.
Mike.X
I agree xetog that targeting someone or a group with abuse is more obviously wrong and could well be hate speech and if there is incitement to violence that would be an additional charge I believe.  I also agree that online becomes a more difficult area.  Mumsnet did say they would fight it if the person concerned asked them too but I gathered they had not.  I haven't actually caught up with it since reading that.  One of the biggest changes they are talking about is treating those running and owning online platforms as publishers.  That would mean they would be treated like newspapers and TV.  We know they are very careful with the wording of headlines, etc., and someone is on hand to make it clear opinions are not those of the TV companies.   I think this is still some way off but it does seem to be what some countries are looking at.
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2019, 08:34:15 AM by Undercover Pensioner »
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GrannyMac

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #36 on: Apr 12, 2019, 05:42:00 AM »
I don't believe people 'choose' to be gay or straight, its not that simple. However,  there are issues around transgenderism that are more complex.  If someone has been through the procedures that make them appear to be their chosen sex, then they should be treated as such.  There are many who will pass and only their family and friends are aware of their transition.


There is however a growing concern amongst women about men who simply dress as females.  Suspicions that some are using their 'rights' to access women only areas like toilets and changing rooms.  This is an extreme case https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2019, 05:47:44 AM by GrannyMac »
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Diasi

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #37 on: Apr 12, 2019, 08:00:28 AM »
I don't believe people 'choose' to be gay or straight, its not that simple. However,  there are issues around transgenderism that are more complex.  If someone has been through the procedures that make them appear to be their chosen sex, then they should be treated as such.  There are many who will pass and only their family and friends are aware of their transition.

There is however a growing concern amongst women about men who simply dress as females. Suspicions that some are using their 'rights' to access women only areas like toilets and changing rooms.  This is an extreme case https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life

What a sloppy article, but it is from the Guardian so to be expected.

The person isn't transgender as their gender hasn't changed so transvestite is the accurate description.

My wife asked me if I'd take her bra off last night so I did & then she asked me to buy my own.  ;D

P.S. Stop your dirty thoughts, I'd been out to the garage & I didn't want my ears to get cold.
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2019, 08:03:46 AM by Diasi »
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GrannyMac

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #38 on: Apr 12, 2019, 08:10:11 AM »
That must have been a good look! I hope it was your garage, and not the local filling station...  :o


Might be a sloppy article, but its a ridiculous situation where a man can just say 'I'm a woman' and be treated as such. 
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Diasi

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #39 on: Apr 12, 2019, 08:16:07 AM »
That must have been a good look! I hope it was your garage, and not the local filling station...  :o

Might be a sloppy article, but its a ridiculous situation where a man can just say 'I'm a woman' and be treated as such.

That's the whole point of my comment, we're living in an age where the politically correct media use incorrect tags which help to create situations like the one you highlight.
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Undercover Pensioner

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #40 on: Apr 12, 2019, 08:32:31 AM »
Unfortunately the law in this area is extremely sloppy as it depends on a person's subjective idea of abuse & the law itself is open to abuse by those with axes to grind.

Here's a quick video explaining hate speech.


I was surprised to read the above until I clicked on the video.  It is not a legal explanation of hate speech at all; it is one man's biased view of why his speech should not be limited if it affects the freedoms of others.  He clearly thinks there should be no laws limiting what he says, whatever the outcome.

So, hate speech is easily recognisable.  It's intention is to harass or cause distress against the intended target and is targeted towards a person or group on the grounds of race, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, colour, ethnic origin or religion.  It can be verbal, written speeches, general harassment or gestures. The use of hate speech can incite violence from one group towards another.

Where you say, Diasi, that it depends on a person's subjective view of what is abuse, this is true in other cases too.  For instance, if I said I felt bullied you could not tell me I don't as it is my feelings and you cannot make a judgement as to what I feel.  If, however, I said at work to the Personnel Department that I felt bullied, although they would know better than to tell me I didn't they would explain the process by which my complaint would be judged; bullying would have to be proved.  You would probably need a log of events showing a pattern and it would help if you have actual evidence, emails, letters, etc., and/or witness/es.  The same would apply to proving a case of hate speech - proof would be required and the person involved would have had to ask for it to stop - or show that they had not been able to.
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Undercover Pensioner

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #41 on: Apr 12, 2019, 08:38:10 AM »
Well you would wouldn't you. Something to hide ?

"Teasing or jesting between forum friends is fine, but it must be in an obviously friendly manner preferably with a smiley to make it clear you are joking. Otherwise it will be considered hostile."

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xetog

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #42 on: Apr 12, 2019, 09:03:24 AM »


I still can't get past chromosomes.  You are what your chromosomes say you are, the rest is psychological.  There is a huge danger in men identifying as women, particularly amongst the young where I can see many boys doing it for a "laugh" and when they are older for more sinister purposes.  For a long time now women have insisted on invading and eradicating 'men's spaces' and frankly there was little danger in it, but it was inevitable that the tables would be turned where the risk is high.  Women say they need space unthreatened by men, but gave little credence to the feelings when they were the other way around.  Well ladies, you wanted 'equality' whatever that means.  Now it's getting a bit uncomfortable it's not so nice. I have a feeling 'you ain't seen nothing yet'.

Mike.X
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2019, 09:08:50 AM by xetog »
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Undercover Pensioner

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #43 on: Apr 12, 2019, 11:30:20 AM »

I do think one thing we have become more aware of is that our sexuality (as opposed to our sex) is very complex.  Mind you even our sex is on a scale with male and female at either end and intersexual people in the middle and we can all sit in various places on that scale. 



Sexuality refers to the total expression of who you are as a human being, your  femaleness or your maleness. Our sexuality begins at birth and ends at death.   Everyone is a sexual being. Your sexuality is an interplay between body image,   gender identity, gender role, sexual orientation, eroticism, genitals, intimacy, relationships, and love and affection. A person's sexuality includes his or her attitudes, values, knowledge and behaviors. How people express their sexuality   is influenced by their families, culture, society, faith and beliefs.



As I said - complex.


http://recapp.etr.org/RECAPP/index.cfm?fuseaction=pages.LearningActivitiesDetail&PageID=167
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2019, 11:33:41 AM by Undercover Pensioner »
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Undercover Pensioner

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #44 on: Apr 12, 2019, 11:55:05 AM »

I still can't get past chromosomes.  You are what your chromosomes say you are, the rest is psychological.  There is a huge danger in men identifying as women, particularly amongst the young where I can see many boys doing it for a "laugh" and when they are older for more sinister purposes.  For a long time now women have insisted on invading and eradicating 'men's spaces' and frankly there was little danger in it, but it was inevitable that the tables would be turned where the risk is high.  Women say they need space unthreatened by men, but gave little credence to the feelings when they were the other way around.  Well ladies, you wanted 'equality' whatever that means.  Now it's getting a bit uncomfortable it's not so nice. I have a feeling 'you ain't seen nothing yet'.

Mike.X



So that started with something that I would agree is difficult, basically the difference between sex and sexuality.  And then we got on the issues with the male sense of entitlement.  How far back would you like to take the entitlement of men to "space".  Obviously, if you go far enough back some men believed it was all theirs.  If we ever get to the point where it has swung to far the other way you only have yourselves to blame.  Push a pendulum too far in one direction and it will swing too far in the other.


What about the sense of male entitlement on a forum such as this.  The amount of mansplaining in the challenging areas of a forum are now legendary and if that won't work then it usually descends to personal attacks or "in your face" comments.  Even the language - that women "invade" men's spaces verges on the chest beating, angry man show of dominance. 


Just give a little of what you have stolen over the centuries and then I - and others - will take such complaints seriously.
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