Author Topic: Coming soon to a court near you....  (Read 818 times)

Diasi

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #45 on: Apr 12, 2019, 12:19:46 PM »
I was surprised to read the above until I clicked on the video.  It is not a legal explanation of hate speech at all; it is one man's biased view of why his speech should not be limited if it affects the freedoms of others.  He clearly thinks there should be no laws limiting what he says, whatever the outcome.
So, hate speech is easily recognisable.  It's intention is to harass or cause distress against the intended target and is targeted towards a person or group on the grounds of race, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, colour, ethnic origin or religion.  It can be verbal, written speeches, general harassment or gestures. The use of hate speech can incite violence from one group towards another.
Where you say, Diasi, that it depends on a person's subjective view of what is abuse, this is true in other cases too.  For instance, if I said I felt bullied you could not tell me I don't as it is my feelings and you cannot make a judgement as to what I feel.  If, however, I said at work to the Personnel Department that I felt bullied, although they would know better than to tell me I didn't they would explain the process by which my complaint would be judged; bullying would have to be proved.  You would probably need a log of events showing a pattern and it would help if you have actual evidence, emails, letters, etc., and/or witness/es.  The same would apply to proving a case of hate speech - proof would be required and the person involved would have had to ask for it to stop - or show that they had not been able to.

Pat Condell does his research & then presents it in a manner which amuses people or annoys people, mainly the politically correct 'I feel offended'.

The main legal elements, around which his video centres, appear to be correct from what I've read, insomuch as:

A hate speech / incident doesn't require any evidence of an element of hate.

The person to which the hate speech / incident is directed doesn't have to perceive it as such.

A third party, such a professional 'I've been offended' warrior, who perceives that incident & probably every other incident they see as a hate crime, can report it based on their personal subjective view.

Police officers can take action based on their personal subjective views.

Evidence is not required, all that's needed is for anyone who thinks that it's a hate crime, based on their personal subjective view, to make a complaint.

Personally, any legislation that allows for an offence to be formed on the basis of someone's personal subjective views & possible prejudices, makes me uneasy.
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2019, 01:12:39 PM by Diasi »
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Undercover Pensioner

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #46 on: Apr 12, 2019, 01:11:37 PM »

Where is your evidence for this Diasi.  Talking about the "politically correct 'I feel offended'." is offensive in itself.  It personalises your attack as an attack on a certain group that you are defining.

Those who see themselves as above the chimed out mantra of the simplistic "political correctness" are saying that they are at ease with people who, rather than avoid of forms of expression or action that exclude, marginalise or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against, think it is okay to treat others in this way.  I don't think there is any way that this makes them superior beings or gives them the right to select those who do try to treat there fellow man in a respectful and reasonable way, to ridicule.

I can see that those who think that society should be allowing the exclusion, marginalisation and insulting of people because of their race, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, colour, ethnic origin or religion would want what this man says to be true.  However, just wanting it does not make it so.  This is a complex subject that works across several laws but it does exist and someone with no accreditation from what I can see cannot just say "this is my opinion therefore you must treat is as a truth".  His video reminds me of the people who proclaimed children should not be vaccinated because, in their opinion, it caused harm even thought there was proof - evidence based proof - that they were wrong .  That is simply not a substantial argument.

I think you would have to offer some more intellectually justifiable evidence than the biased opinion of one man, e.g., a proper legal summary of the complexity of this subject before I personally - and I would guess the law - would even begin to take his so called proof seriously.
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2019, 01:22:00 PM by Undercover Pensioner »
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Michael Rolls

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #47 on: Apr 12, 2019, 02:01:13 PM »
Me too - as legislation, it stinks
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Diasi

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #48 on: Apr 12, 2019, 03:25:06 PM »
Me too - as legislation, it stinks
Mike

That's the problem with sloppy 'catch-all' legislation.

The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, was sold, by Tony Blair, as being needed to combat terrorism, but it also gave sweeping powers to local authorities.

One of the first, if not the first, prosecutions using the powers of this Act, was brought, by a local authority, against a woman who'd lied about her address to get her child into a better school.
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2019, 03:29:14 PM by Diasi »
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Michael Rolls

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #49 on: Apr 12, 2019, 04:12:27 PM »
And the money spent on prosecuting her could have paid for filling a few potholes
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GrannyMac

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #50 on: Apr 12, 2019, 10:45:08 PM »
[size=100%]Where you say, Diasi, that it depends on a person's subjective view of what is abuse, this is true in other cases too.  For instance, if I said I felt bullied you could not tell me I don't as it is my feelings and you cannot make a judgement as to what I feel.  If, however, I said at work to the Personnel Department that I felt bullied, although they would know better than to tell me I didn't they would explain the process by which my complaint would be judged; bullying would have to be proved.  You would probably need a log of events showing a pattern and it would help if you have actual evidence, emails, letters, etc., and/or witness/es.  The same would apply to proving a case of hate speech - proof would be required and the person involved would have had to ask for it to stop - or show that they had not been able to.[/size][size=100%][/l][/l][/l]
You would think bullying would have to be proved. Sadly its open to abuse. I worked for a manager who was later accused of bullying and suspended for almost a year whilst her 'case' was investigated.  All she was trying to do was to manage someone who wasn't doing their job.

The person who reported her was a real time server and had the ear of a few more senior people.   It was a farce.  After months of senior management trying to make a few accusations stick, they realised there was no bullying. Not chatting to someone about their kids isn't bullying.  Asking them to work hours required by the job they accepted isn't bullying.  My friend has a relative who is an employment law solicitor, they laughed when they read the so called case.  Senior management eventually backed down and grovelled.  If my friend hadn't been so weary of the whole carry on, she could have taken her employer to a tribunal, and it was odds on she'd have won.  As it was, she told them to stuff their job, got a bit of a pay off in lieu of notice and went into business for herself.   She was then head hunted by an organisation who recognised her specialist abilities and she now runs a major part of their UK wide business. 
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Diasi

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #51 on: Apr 13, 2019, 05:20:18 AM »
Where is your evidence for this Diasi.  Talking about the "politically correct 'I feel offended'." is offensive in itself.  It personalises your attack as an attack on a certain group that you are defining.
Those who see themselves as above the chimed out mantra of the simplistic "political correctness" are saying that they are at ease with people who, rather than avoid of forms of expression or action that exclude, marginalise or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against, think it is okay to treat others in this way.  I don't think there is any way that this makes them superior beings or gives them the right to select those who do try to treat there fellow man in a respectful and reasonable way, to ridicule.
I can see that those who think that society should be allowing the exclusion, marginalisation and insulting of people because of their race, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, colour, ethnic origin or religion would want what this man says to be true.  However, just wanting it does not make it so.  This is a complex subject that works across several laws but it does exist and someone with no accreditation from what I can see cannot just say "this is my opinion therefore you must treat is as a truth".  His video reminds me of the people who proclaimed children should not be vaccinated because, in their opinion, it caused harm even thought there was proof - evidence based proof - that they were wrong .  That is simply not a substantial argument.
I think you would have to offer some more intellectually justifiable evidence than the biased opinion of one man, e.g., a proper legal summary of the complexity of this subject before I personally - and I would guess the law - would even begin to take his so called proof seriously.

For which parts of my post are you asking me to provide evidence?

Your bit about "Talking about the "politically correct 'I feel offended'." is offensive in itself.  It personalises your attack as an attack on a certain group that you are defining.", is a classic example of someone using their own personal subjective view to feel offended.

From a personal subjective view I find your last paragraph patronising & offensive. ;D
« Last Edit: Apr 13, 2019, 05:53:01 AM by Diasi »
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Diasi

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #52 on: Apr 13, 2019, 05:32:53 AM »
You would think bullying would have to be proved. Sadly its open to abuse. I worked for a manager who was later accused of bullying and suspended for almost a year whilst her 'case' was investigated.  All she was trying to do was to manage someone who wasn't doing their job.

The person who reported her was a real time server and had the ear of a few more senior people.   It was a farce.  After months of senior management trying to make a few accusations stick, they realised there was no bullying. Not chatting to someone about their kids isn't bullying.  Asking them to work hours required by the job they accepted isn't bullying.  My friend has a relative who is an employment law solicitor, they laughed when they read the so called case.  Senior management eventually backed down and grovelled.  If my friend hadn't been so weary of the whole carry on, she could have taken her employer to a tribunal, and it was odds on she'd have won.  As it was, she told them to stuff their job, got a bit of a pay off in lieu of notice and went into business for herself.   She was then head hunted by an organisation who recognised her specialist abilities and she now runs a major part of their UK wide business.

It's not all that uncommon for staff to make vexatious complaints in order to take the spotlight off themselves.

It also happens in schools where pupils & parents do the same to teachers.
« Last Edit: Apr 13, 2019, 05:42:00 AM by Diasi »
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Undercover Pensioner

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #53 on: Apr 13, 2019, 04:55:08 PM »

You would think bullying would have to be proved. Sadly its open to abuse. I worked for a manager who was later accused of bullying and suspended for almost a year whilst her 'case' was investigated.  All she was trying to do was to manage someone who wasn't doing their job.

The person who reported her was a real time server and had the ear of a few more senior people.   It was a farce.  After months of senior management trying to make a few accusations stick, they realised there was no bullying. Not chatting to someone about their kids isn't bullying.  Asking them to work hours required by the job they accepted isn't bullying.  My friend has a relative who is an employment law solicitor, they laughed when they read the so called case.  Senior management eventually backed down and grovelled.  If my friend hadn't been so weary of the whole carry on, she could have taken her employer to a tribunal, and it was odds on she'd have won.  As it was, she told them to stuff their job, got a bit of a pay off in lieu of notice and went into business for herself.   She was then head hunted by an organisation who recognised her specialist abilities and she now runs a major part of their UK wide business. 
To be honest Granny Mac it sounds to me as if the law itself was not a problem; the case had not even gone to law.  If anything the company was at fault for the speed at which they moved and, had it got to tribunal, could have been criticised for this if the time fell outwith their own policies

However, your view of your friends situation was, not surprisingly, of only one side of the issue and you, quite rightly, supported your friend.  Pay-offs do not necessary mean she was in the right (or wrong). Companies are often advised that it will cost them more if a case is taken to tribunal so the "bit of a pay-off" might have just been seen to be expedient.  Often, these days, these small payments go along with an NDA so, the thinking goes, a line can be drawn under the whole thing.

The good thing is that she made a positive out of the situation.
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GrannyMac

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #54 on: Apr 13, 2019, 08:04:09 PM »
UP I saw the papers. She was accused of petty things which would not constitute bullying legally or otherwise. An employment law specialist read everything and said there was no case. The only person bullied was my ex boss by senior managers who didn't support her doing the job she was paid to do.


I'm just glad another organisation recognised her ability.   I don't know if I could have been as strong if I'd been suspended for almost a year.
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Aesop

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #55 on: Apr 14, 2019, 09:32:02 AM »
I understand where you are coming from Granny Mac but this was not a problem with the law and the person acting for your friend or her employer is bound to put forward the best scenario for their client.   I am quite prepared to believe the employer, your friend and you did not believe there was bullying, just as I would be quite prepared to believe the complainant felt there was but neither of those back the point you made that "you would think bullying would have to be proved".  It would have either been proved or disproved if it had gone to tribunal, otherwise you can hardly blame the law as this was never legally adjudicated so the criticism cannot be of the law - which is what we were discussing.

These cases are notoriously difficult and no one wants to see someone bullied at work or someone wrongfully accused.  It is now much harder for someone who has been bullied - or wrongly treated in any way at work - as it now costs a lot to go to tribunal and is more difficult for most people unless they are backed by a union.  It is also difficult - probably impossible - for cognitive bias not to kick in when it's someone you know and care for - I know it would if it was my friend.  In fact, in this case it was never resolved legally so I expect both people walked away thinking they were in the right.
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Undercover Pensioner

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #56 on: Apr 14, 2019, 09:36:23 AM »
From a personal subjective view I find your last paragraph patronising & offensive. ;D

I'm afraid a smiley does not automatically make somethin funny Diasi.  The paragraph you refer to says:  "I think you would have to offer some more intellectually justifiable evidence than the biased opinion of one man, e.g., a proper legal summary of the complexity of this subject before I personally - and I would guess the law - would even begin to take his so called proof seriously."  Could you point out what I have said that is personally offensive in this and I will apologise.  I feel you should at least tell me what you are pointing to if you are going to say, in a post, that you are offended.
« Last Edit: Apr 14, 2019, 10:57:14 AM by Undercover Pensioner »
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GrannyMac

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #57 on: Apr 14, 2019, 11:22:05 AM »
I understand where you are coming from Granny Mac but this was not a problem with the law and the person acting for your friend or her employer is bound to put forward the best scenario for their client.   I am quite prepared to believe the employer, your friend and you did not believe there was bullying, just as I would be quite prepared to believe the complainant felt there was but neither of those back the point you made that "you would think bullying would have to be proved".  It would have either been proved or disproved if it had gone to tribunal, otherwise you can hardly blame the law as this was never legally adjudicated so the criticism cannot be of the law - which is what we were discussing.
These cases are notoriously difficult and no one wants to see someone bullied at work or someone wrongfully accused.  It is now much harder for someone who has been bullied - or wrongly treated in any way at work - as it now costs a lot to go to tribunal and is more difficult for most people unless they are backed by a union.  It is also difficult - probably impossible - for cognitive bias not to kick in when it's someone you know and care for - I know it would if it was my friend.  In fact, in this case it was never resolved legally so I expect both people walked away thinking they were in the right. [/l][/l][/l]
I expect they didn't.


It was made very clear by a new HR manager who took it over that there was no case to answer. The senior managers should have dealt swiftly with the ridiculous allegations but they chose to go for suspension. He said they had acted unreasonably, threatening dismissal without doing reasonable fact finding. 


My friend could have gone straight back to her role, an apology was issued, and the complainant would have been moved. My friend did not believe she could work in the organisation after the incident. All trust was gone. It was spelt out clearly who was wrong.
Taking legal action would probably have resulted in a financial hand out, but money wasn't the issue for my friend.
« Last Edit: Apr 14, 2019, 11:25:46 AM by GrannyMac »
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Aesop

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #58 on: Apr 14, 2019, 07:55:32 PM »
I won't reply again after this as I can see you are deeply invested in how your friend was treated.  As I said, so would I be in your place.

This still does not prove that bullying had been legally proved or disproved.  Your comment that "you would think bullying would have to be proved" is not clarified in either direction by your friends story, sad though it is, as no judicial ruling was involved. 

The judgement was made by the HR manager, a new HR manager you say, who would want to clear the decks of something like this.  I would have thought that it might have been possible for your friend to take her employer to tribunal, possibly for constructive dismissal if she had left the company, and they would want to avoid that.

It appears your friend was satisfied with the outcome which is really what everyone would want.
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GrannyMac

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Re: Coming soon to a court near you....
« Reply #59 on: Apr 15, 2019, 07:28:51 AM »
Have it your way UP. I previously worked there, I knew the personnel involved, and it was obviously a witch hunt.  When a member of staff has friends in high places, they can be impossible to manage. 
No act of kindness, no matter how small, is ever wasted.

Aesop