Michael, I know its a bit tiresome to keep returning to our discussion, however what did you not understand when I said, I we [family] have dealt with our young children who have done the things you describe? including biting, [ just incase you think I should have itemized offences] I also gave my opinion of harm to the cat mention, as I have said to others, you prefer your method, I prefer my, "idealist rose tinted views". zoony, I think you are quite right, we do learn from experience, my own experience as a child, and carried on as a parent myself, came from my parents, I was not smacked [which I contest can lead to hitting] I was educated, the violence I experienced came from big "galutes" of teachers, via a bamboo cane or leather strap, thank goodness that has been abolished, [ my opinion]