Author Topic: is the U.K becoming a lawless society.  (Read 4645 times)

mick607

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Re: is the U.K becoming a lawless society.
« Reply #15 on: Oct 16, 2019, 04:42:01 PM »
A good friend of mine many many years ago fell foul of the Welfare Regulations. A professionally qualified guy that up until he was 34 (1983) worked hard for his family doing a responsible job. His character was squeaky clean with not even a point on his driving licence.

After being made redundant in 1983 he decided that job security (which was important to him) than lots of money and so decided to start up his own business. He couldn't afford to buy a business so started one up from nothing. Obviously he had to claim some welfare benefits - Unemployment Benefit (JSA) and Supplementary Benefit (IS).
He worked many hours looking for work for his business and little by little over the next 18 months he was earning enough to manage on so cancelled his welfare benefit claims (1985). During the course of those claims he notified the DHSS every other week of the net income that he had earned in the previous two weeks.
Late in 1987 he had a visit from a fraud investigator from the DHSS at his home. Not understanding why, he refused to answer any questions unless his solicitor was present.
Some months later he had the police at his home at 6am with a search warrant, he was arrested and taken to the police station. When questioned later he was asked about his work when he was claiming benefits for that 18 months. He explained that the DHSS knew all about it and what his net income was for all of that period.

6 months later he was in Crown Court answering charges of benefit fraud in that he had deliberately given false information about his earnings. He should have disclosed his gross income before all business expenses incurred were deducted plus he failed to disclose the actual hours of working
He was found guilty and was given a 6 month prison sentence to serve 1 month in HMP Strangeways with the remaining 5 months suspended for a year + probation + costs + to repay everything that he had received from the DHSS.

The important point of this is that he lost his business, no one would give him a job after his release and eventually his wife left him with their two children. Since then he has spent more time in prison that out of it as he could only see one way of getting money - stealing it or goods to sell.

Prison works?? Rubbish. Prison has made him what he is now.
Sounds to me he was a bad un who was found out.

Diasi

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Re: is the U.K becoming a lawless society.
« Reply #16 on: Oct 16, 2019, 05:23:34 PM »
A good friend of mine many many years ago fell foul of the Welfare Regulations. A professionally qualified guy that up until he was 34 (1983) worked hard for his family doing a responsible job. His character was squeaky clean with not even a point on his driving licence.

After being made redundant in 1983 he decided that job security (which was important to him) than lots of money and so decided to start up his own business. He couldn't afford to buy a business so started one up from nothing. Obviously he had to claim some welfare benefits - Unemployment Benefit (JSA) and Supplementary Benefit (IS).
He worked many hours looking for work for his business and little by little over the next 18 months he was earning enough to manage on so cancelled his welfare benefit claims (1985). During the course of those claims he notified the DHSS every other week of the net income that he had earned in the previous two weeks.
Late in 1987 he had a visit from a fraud investigator from the DHSS at his home. Not understanding why, he refused to answer any questions unless his solicitor was present.
Some months later he had the police at his home at 6am with a search warrant, he was arrested and taken to the police station. When questioned later he was asked about his work when he was claiming benefits for that 18 months. He explained that the DHSS knew all about it and what his net income was for all of that period.

6 months later he was in Crown Court answering charges of benefit fraud in that he had deliberately given false information about his earnings. He should have disclosed his gross income before all business expenses incurred were deducted plus he failed to disclose the actual hours of working
He was found guilty and was given a 6 month prison sentence to serve 1 month in HMP Strangeways with the remaining 5 months suspended for a year + probation + costs + to repay everything that he had received from the DHSS.

The important point of this is that he lost his business, no one would give him a job after his release and eventually his wife left him with their two children. Since then he has spent more time in prison that out of it as he could only see one way of getting money - stealing it or goods to sell.

Prison works?? Rubbish. Prison has made him what he is now.

Not following the regulations has made him what he is now.

I have to point out it must have been a substantial fraud case to reach the Crown Court & for him to receive a custodial sentence.
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Goingtoseed

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Re: is the U.K becoming a lawless society.
« Reply #17 on: Oct 16, 2019, 05:24:34 PM »
A salutary story and I doubt it's a unique one. Sh*t happens and being on the wrong end of the stick can cost a person dear.

I agree it happens more often than people think.

Some 29 years ago two other friends, husband and wife, were having financial business issues and were worried that it would have to fold. Their main customer, a large ground working company in London (you still see their green lorries all over London) threatened to pull out of the contract with them. To keep the contract it was suggested that if they could pay one of their cheques into their bank and draw out an equivalent amount in cash every Friday (to pay the cash in hand employees) the working relationship would continue.
My friends made nothing out of this other than the contract continued.

HMRC investigators got involved and my friends were completely honest in telling them what was going on and as far as they were concerned they had done nothing wrong.
How wrong they were. They were charged with conspiracy to defraud, found guilty at Southwark Crown Court and both husband and wife each received 18 months in prison.
He went to Brixton and she to Holloway.
The directors of the company that carried out the activity in the first place each got 6 months as they convinced the jury that it was my friends who had set the scheme up originally because they didn't want to lose the contract!!

That experience cost them both their health and business.

Diasi

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Re: is the U.K becoming a lawless society.
« Reply #18 on: Oct 16, 2019, 05:35:25 PM »
I agree it happens more often than people think.

Some 29 years ago two other friends, husband and wife, were having financial business issues and were worried that it would have to fold. Their main customer, a large ground working company in London (you still see their green lorries all over London) threatened to pull out of the contract with them. To keep the contract it was suggested that if they could pay one of their cheques into their bank and draw out an equivalent amount in cash every Friday (to pay the cash in hand employees) the working relationship would continue.
My friends made nothing out of this other than the contract continued.

HMRC investigators got involved and my friends were completely honest in telling them what was going on and as far as they were concerned they had done nothing wrong.
How wrong they were. They were charged with conspiracy to defraud, found guilty at Southwark Crown Court and both husband and wife each received 18 months in prison.
He went to Brixton and she to Holloway.
The directors of the company that carried out the activity in the first place each got 6 months as they convinced the jury that it was my friends who had set the scheme up originally because they didn't want to lose the contract!!

That experience cost them both their health and business.

Cash-in-hand frauds is an area where we did a lot of joint investigations with HMRC Tax & VAT teams.

No one in business pays cash-in-hand & doesn't know it's fraud as the books & paperwork trail have to be fiddled,

Conspiracy to defraud was the correct charge & the 18 month sentence reflected the fact that it was a deliberate pre-planned & significant fraud.
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Michael Rolls

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Re: is the U.K becoming a lawless society.
« Reply #19 on: Oct 16, 2019, 06:41:10 PM »
Its not scumbags on the street who steel even from the poor.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50053594

When we live in a society that condones this it is no wonder that people steel !!
what on earth does that have to do with people being murder Ed?
Mike
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Diasi

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Re: is the U.K becoming a lawless society.
« Reply #20 on: Oct 16, 2019, 10:47:09 PM »
Sounds to me he was a bad un who was found out.

Indeed, we're only getting a part of the picture.

In 1983 he would have had to sign on at the Department of Employment UBO, where his unemployment benefit & DHSS supplementary benefits were paid.

Each time he signed on he would be asked verbally if he had worked & what hours he had worked & then asked to sign the declaration on the relevant UB form to that effect.

I can tell you that in those days the policy was not to prosecute any first time fraudster if the overpayment was less than £1,000 & the vast majority of cases which were prosecuted were heard by a magistrates court where a custodial sentence was not normally imposed.

The only cases that ever went to a Crown Court were prolific repeat offenders or a first time offender who could be shown to have gone to great lengths to commit the fraud & where the two Depts sought a greater sentence than could be given by a magistrates court.

Therefore, for this guy to be put up before a Judge & jury at a Crown Court the fraud must have been very substantial with an overpayment of some £1,000s.
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Goingtoseed

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Re: is the U.K becoming a lawless society.
« Reply #21 on: Oct 17, 2019, 11:11:46 AM »
prisons need to be places where criminals are afraid to go , not places where you can still get drugs slipped in, all your entertainment, be out in 2 0r 3 years ..depending on the crime,  even if you take a life ,you won't lose yours...remember " human rights"... too many do gooders on the criminal side. too few policemen local.police stations closing..

Have you actually been inside any prisons?

They are certainly not holiday camps.
I have visited Strangeways, Manchester only a year or two before the riots, Brixton, Holloway, Ford Open, Standford Hill and East Sutton Park.

The places have an aroma of their own as well as constant noise.

Ok these were official legal/government business visits but even those parts were bad enough.

Alex22

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Re: is the U.K becoming a lawless society.
« Reply #22 on: Oct 17, 2019, 11:19:14 AM »
There were clips taken recently on a 'smuggled in' mobile phone of the selection of food in one prison, they called it HMP Toby Carvery
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Diasi

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Re: is the U.K becoming a lawless society.
« Reply #23 on: Oct 17, 2019, 01:13:29 PM »
There were clips taken recently on a 'smuggled in' mobile phone of the selection of food in one prison, they called it HMP Toby Carvery

Prisons have what's known as 'canteen' each Friday when DHL deliver all the goods that the prisoners have ordered from the outside.
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Alex22

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Re: is the U.K becoming a lawless society.
« Reply #24 on: Oct 17, 2019, 01:15:12 PM »
WHAT  !!!   :o
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Diasi

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Make every day count, each day is precious.
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Bobcat

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Re: is the U.K becoming a lawless society.
« Reply #26 on: Oct 17, 2019, 02:19:50 PM »
I have stated my opinion before.

Take a petty criminal, lock him up and treat him in a brutal inhuman way, and you will produce a bitter hardened criminal who is almost certain to offend again.

Take a petty criminal, lock him up, give him basic education, teach him a trade and, if your lucky, you might produce a useful member of society who will not offend again.

Goingtoseed

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Re: is the U.K becoming a lawless society.
« Reply #27 on: Oct 17, 2019, 02:56:02 PM »
Not following the regulations has made him what he is now.

I have to point out it must have been a substantial fraud case to reach the Crown Court & for him to receive a custodial sentence.

I may be just a few £'s out but the total involved amounted to (Unemployment Benefit/Supplementary Benefit/Council Tax Benefit) was £12200. This was over an 18/19 month period.
It was initially heard in the Magistrates Court where he elected for the case to go before the Crown Court. I think what made it what it was (other than just a case of working and claiming unemployment benefit which in the main it was) was that he refused to co-operate with the DHSS investigator. They (the DHSS) pushed the case to the police to see if they could progress it. It was the police that obtained the search warrant, arrested him and did all of the interviewing at the police station.
He was charged with 3 sample offences + another 78 offences to be taken into account (one for each week of the period he claimed).
I only found out about the conviction after first hearing of it on the local TV news - it was then on the local radio stations as well as the newspapers. Obviously he couldn't telephone me from prison - no phones in prison at that time and limited to one letter per week and one visit every other week.

This is where my daughters' got involved after his release - they appealed against the overpayment decision to the Commissioners. They won the case that for the first three years of trading the Inland Revenue agreed that there was no tax to pay as there was little/none net profit earned. Consequently the deemed overpayment of £12,200 was scrapped. Unfortunately because it was a High Court order and despite there being no loss to the state the £12,200 still stood to be paid into court.
The Commissioners were amazed that he was actually convicted on the evidence submitted.

He is still, these many years later, angry at being sent to prison for something that was later proven to have never happened - he was entitled to the £12,200 all along!

Hence why he sees no point in 'going straight' as he might as well go to prison for something that he knows he has done - hence he has spent more time inside since than being a free man - he basically does not care.
 


ronyork

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Re: is the U.K becoming a lawless society.
« Reply #28 on: Oct 17, 2019, 04:20:42 PM »
Yes being the answer, prisoners running the prisons, children in many cases acting like spoiled brats with very little respect for schools, the law, and in many cases parents., drugs high on the agenda in schools/colleges/uni,s. the drinking culture seems to be accepted, robbery up, drug taking up, car crime in many towns increasing , Yes the writing is on the wall, unless you are looking through rose tinted glasses, Where are the parents of these young children ,who no doubt will go on to live a life of crime,perhaps they just do not care and sweep it under the carpet,. I do not venture at much at night for reasons stated above,  I would not feel safe ,to compare it with China where my son lived for twenty years mainly Shanghai and Beijing and felt  quite when out in the evenings with or without company, my point being crime is low, when  one is outside your home you are safe  (the punishment fits the crime and punishment is severe) it,s called law and order, I have no problem with that, why should we keeps these yobs in prison appearing to have a better life with medical treatment decent food warmth and care to a higher level to many of our pensioners

Diasi

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Re: is the U.K becoming a lawless society.
« Reply #29 on: Oct 17, 2019, 04:31:40 PM »
I may be just a few £'s out but the total involved amounted to (Unemployment Benefit/Supplementary Benefit/Council Tax Benefit) was £12200. This was over an 18/19 month period.
It was initially heard in the Magistrates Court where he elected for the case to go before the Crown Court. I think what made it what it was (other than just a case of working and claiming unemployment benefit which in the main it was) was that he refused to co-operate with the DHSS investigator. They (the DHSS) pushed the case to the police to see if they could progress it. It was the police that obtained the search warrant, arrested him and did all of the interviewing at the police station.
He was charged with 3 sample offences + another 78 offences to be taken into account (one for each week of the period he claimed).
I only found out about the conviction after first hearing of it on the local TV news - it was then on the local radio stations as well as the newspapers. Obviously he couldn't telephone me from prison - no phones in prison at that time and limited to one letter per week and one visit every other week.

This is where my daughters' got involved after his release - they appealed against the overpayment decision to the Commissioners. They won the case that for the first three years of trading the Inland Revenue agreed that there was no tax to pay as there was little/none net profit earned. Consequently the deemed overpayment of £12,200 was scrapped. Unfortunately because it was a High Court order and despite there being no loss to the state the £12,200 still stood to be paid into court.
The Commissioners were amazed that he was actually convicted on the evidence submitted.

He is still, these many years later, angry at being sent to prison for something that was later proven to have never happened - he was entitled to the £12,200 all along!

Hence why he sees no point in 'going straight' as he might as well go to prison for something that he knows he has done - hence he has spent more time inside since than being a free man - he basically does not care.

The fact that the HMRC commissioners found that he had made no profit has nothing to do with the Dept of Employment & DHSS prosecution.

There doesn't have to be any earnings for a Dept of Employment / DHSS overpayment & fraud case.

It can be caused by people not declaring their hours of work & thus being ineligible for any benefits.

If his conviction was unsound he could have appealed & won.
Make every day count, each day is precious.
"Death leaves a heartache no one can heal, love leaves a memory no one can steal".  (Cassandra)