Author Topic: Another BLOODY disgrace  (Read 216 times)

Michael Rolls

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14617
Another BLOODY disgrace
« on: Jan 10, 2020, 12:13:41 PM »
New year's day, 2018, minding your own business when a man wielding a firearm (later found to be an imitation, but how could you know at the time) threatens you mother, demanding money. You and your brother managed to disarm and subdue due him and call 999. The police take 20 minutes to respond to a call identifying an armed intruder - c'mon, let's be fair, they were probably dealing with SERIOUS matters like hate crime amongst 5 year olds. Restraining the intruder by sitting on him you realise he has stopped struggling. By the time the police finally bother to turn up, it is clear that the intruder is dead.
Next step? You and and your brother are arrested and charged with murder! In the event, the pathologist is unable to determine which, of several possible causes, resulted in the man's death, so the charges are dropped. Big bloody deal - these two guys are HEROES - not criminals!
What the HELL is going on?
Mike
The older I get, the better I was!

Diasi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6967
Re: Another BLOODY disgrace
« Reply #1 on: Jan 10, 2020, 12:24:28 PM »
New year's day, 2018, minding your own business when a man wielding a firearm (later found to be an imitation, but how could you know at the time) threatens you mother, demanding money. You and your brother managed to disarm and subdue due him and call 999. The police take 20 minutes to respond to a call identifying an armed intruder - c'mon, let's be fair, they were probably dealing with SERIOUS matters like hate crime amongst 5 year olds. Restraining the intruder by sitting on him you realise he has stopped struggling. By the time the police finally bother to turn up, it is clear that the intruder is dead.
Next step? You and and your brother are arrested and charged with murder! In the event, the pathologist is unable to determine which, of several possible causes, resulted in the man's death, so the charges are dropped. Big bloody deal - these two guys are HEROES - not criminals!
What the HELL is going on?
Mike

We need the USA approach of "if you're on my property your ass is mine".

But, of course, it'll never happen.
Make every day count, each day is precious.

Countdown to Brexit https://bit.ly/2RF6F3m

Ashy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21445
Re: Another BLOODY disgrace
« Reply #2 on: Jan 10, 2020, 12:27:41 PM »
I agree with that. I expect it's written down in a more legalistic way.
LEAVE STILL MEANS LEAVE

Diasi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6967
Re: Another BLOODY disgrace
« Reply #3 on: Jan 10, 2020, 12:41:50 PM »
I agree with that. I expect it's written down in a more legalistic way.

 ;D ;D ;D
Make every day count, each day is precious.

Countdown to Brexit https://bit.ly/2RF6F3m

xetog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8892
Re: Another BLOODY disgrace
« Reply #4 on: Jan 10, 2020, 03:45:05 PM »
Near here a couple of boys in the mid teens (16 & 17 I believe) held up a 70 year old man in his home and threatened him with a gun to get him to revel where his money was hidden (he didn't have any). The old guy just told them to do their worst and they fled, but were identified and caught nearby.  The gun was a fake, but the 16 year old who had the gun also had a knife on him.  In court it was disclosed that the gun was a fake, but the offenders identity cannot be revealed and he was told that he had been a naughty boy and not to do it again in spite of previous convictions.  I don't know what happened to the 17 year old, but he was heard encouraging the younger boy to "Shoot him" when the gun was being brandished in the face of the old man and he did not know it was a replica.

Mike.X

If you want to control peoples thoughts, first control their words.

Raven

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10689
Re: Another BLOODY disgrace
« Reply #5 on: Jan 10, 2020, 03:55:30 PM »
We need the USA approach of "if you're on my property your ass is mine".

But, of course, it'll never happen.


My OH already adopts that attitude, he gets very twitchy if he thinks anyone's in the barns area or messing with the animals.

zoony

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45196
Re: Another BLOODY disgrace
« Reply #6 on: Jan 10, 2020, 04:26:42 PM »
The law allows the use of 'Reasonable Force'. How scared the two of you were after he's beaten the crap out of the b*stards is up to you. I agree with not killing an intruder, anything else is interpretation.
" There ain't no Devil, it's jus' God when he's drunk.."

Tom Waites

Michael Rolls

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14617
Re: Another BLOODY disgrace
« Reply #7 on: Jan 10, 2020, 07:43:13 PM »
They didn't kill him - he died from one of several possible causes - the pathologist couldn't determine the actual cause. Quite apart from the disgrace of arresting the brothers for murder - 20 minutes to respond to a firearm incident?
Mike
The older I get, the better I was!

klondike

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 734
Re: Another BLOODY disgrace
« Reply #8 on: Jan 10, 2020, 11:01:54 PM »
It wasn't in London though was it?

Michael Rolls

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14617
Re: Another BLOODY disgrace
« Reply #9 on: Jan 10, 2020, 11:30:06 PM »
No, so I suppose thatís why it only got a few inches in an inside page!
Mike
The older I get, the better I was!

Diasi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6967
Re: Another BLOODY disgrace
« Reply #10 on: Jan 11, 2020, 07:39:23 AM »
The law allows the use of 'Reasonable Force'. How scared the two of you were afterhe's beaten the crap out of the b*stards is up to you. I agree with not killing an intruder, anything else is interpretation.

My view is simple, you put the intruder down & make sure they stay down.
Make every day count, each day is precious.

Countdown to Brexit https://bit.ly/2RF6F3m

Cassandra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1317
Re: Another BLOODY disgrace
« Reply #11 on: Jan 11, 2020, 11:45:33 AM »
New year's day, 2018, minding your own business when a man wielding a firearm (later found to be an imitation, but how could you know at the time) threatens you mother, demanding money. You and your brother managed to disarm and subdue due him and call 999. The police take 20 minutes to respond to a call identifying an armed intruder - c'mon, let's be fair, they were probably dealing with SERIOUS matters like hate crime amongst 5 year olds. Restraining the intruder by sitting on him you realise he has stopped struggling. By the time the police finally bother to turn up, it is clear that the intruder is dead.
Next step? You and and your brother are arrested and charged with murder! In the event, the pathologist is unable to determine which, of several possible causes, resulted in the man's death, so the charges are dropped. Big bloody deal - these two guys are HEROES - not criminals!
What the HELL is going on?
Mike

Mike from another prospective the dead man could have been lured to the home of the two brothers with the pre-planned intention of murdering him. Asphyxiation is an easy death to facilitate 2 to one, after the intended subject has been rendered semi conscious by say a blow to the head?

An imitation firearm bearing his prints is left on the floor, the head injury could have been sustained in the purported struggle. From such circumstantial evidence, with no witnesses the Police were bound to detain the brothers for questioning as their account is uncorroborated. Arrest followed as a process in gaining time to collect evidence, motive etc.

The 'CPS' would have determined these circumstances as unlikely to gain a conviction and quite correctly desisted. There exist 'Murder Firms' who specialise in the vagaries of such indeterminate disposals.

Michael Rolls

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14617
Re: Another BLOODY disgrace
« Reply #12 on: Jan 11, 2020, 11:51:34 AM »
Fair enough - but 20 minutes for a police response to a firearm incident? Who knows, if the police had appeared a bit more urgently, the man might not have died - it is unclear from the report but it looks as though the charges weren't dropped until relatively recently compared to the timing of the event itself. And, although the sort of scenario you describe is clearly one the police must have to consider, how long would it take to check it? After all, this happened just over two years ago!
Mike
The older I get, the better I was!

Cassandra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1317
Re: Another BLOODY disgrace
« Reply #13 on: Jan 11, 2020, 12:34:09 PM »
Fair enough - but 20 minutes for a police response to a firearm incident? Who knows, if the police had appeared a bit more urgently, the man might not have died - it is unclear from the report but it looks as though the charges weren't dropped until relatively recently compared to the timing of the event itself. And, although the sort of scenario you describe is clearly one the police must have to consider, how long would it take to check it? After all, this happened just over two years ago!
Mike

Mike I only mentioned my suggested scenario as such events were, like the Police encounter daily, once a regular part of my life. The ungodly are not beyond blanking out a Police area 999 response by 'creating' false demand and then of course 'tuning in' to the old bill to judge how long its going to take to arrive?

Probably the coroner returned an 'open' verdict, so technically prosecution can be made at any future time. Pro crims will (under advice) sometimes invite an ill judged prosecution to gain the protection of double jeopardy that a 'not guilty' decision extends.

This synopsis and the way the Police have to deal with it often lampoons them as bunglers, which is always good copy for the media.

The truth is no amount of time can solve an 'open' case. Events sometimes decades on unveil the eventual truth. I'm not defending the right to self defence etc I'm merely trying to establish the objective of consideration to retain the right of prosecution following new evidence, or in cases where following a terminal illness prognosis, a so called 'death-bed' confession is revealed.                         
« Last Edit: Jan 11, 2020, 12:37:18 PM by Cassandra »

Michael Rolls

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14617
Re: Another BLOODY disgrace
« Reply #14 on: Jan 11, 2020, 12:45:29 PM »

Thank you sir, and I bow to your infinitely greater experience in such matters, but what concerns me greatly is the time that all this has taken.
The old adage of justice delayed is justice denied, Is one that I have very strongly felt over the decades. One only has to look at the way the Nick allegations were handled to be very very worried.
Had I been the senior investigating officer in this case, My first task would have been to establish cause of death. This, the pathologist was unable to do.
So what next? The next  line of enquiry, would surely have been would the intruder have been known to those intruded upon upon? Obviously a yes answer and a no answer would have led to totally different threads of investigation.
I am really unhappy about what has been reported about this case. Obviously one cannot rely upon the press to report everything of relevance. However, This seems to have been a thoughelly delayed investigation, leaving the two brothers in limbo for nearly 2 years.
Mike
The older I get, the better I was!