Author Topic: Pie in the sky? (nothing to do with covid)  (Read 465 times)

klondike

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12049
Re: Pie in the sky? (nothing to do with covid)
« Reply #60 on: Nov 20, 2020, 02:49:38 PM »
They might be 3p a year. I suspect not though as hydrogen is going to cost more money to produce and a lot more to transport than oil gas.


I suppose the answer will be to have a tank in the garden like the LPG gas tanks and a great big diesel lorry coming round every week to fill it up.

Ashy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 30885
Re: Pie in the sky? (nothing to do with covid)
« Reply #61 on: Nov 20, 2020, 03:07:43 PM »
***Perhaps***

We must all remember the changeover to North Sea Gas and how every burner (and meter) in use, was replaced by the gas board. It was around 1968.

The burners had to be made compatible with Town Gas and North Sea Gas.

Will we have to do this again and who will pay for it? If the burners and possibly meters and ignition systems have to be replaced to be compatible with Hydrogen mix gas?

Because they can't push hydrogen into the gas system otherwise.
Support our Health Service
You won't get better.

Stand up, or give up.

Michael Rolls

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35603
Re: Pie in the sky? (nothing to do with covid)
« Reply #62 on: Nov 20, 2020, 04:43:00 PM »
I remember it. I also remember there were quite a few faulty installations, some of them downright dangerous
Mike
The older I get, the better I was!

Ashy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 30885
Re: Pie in the sky? (nothing to do with covid)
« Reply #63 on: Nov 20, 2020, 05:25:44 PM »
I honestly don't remember the faulty installations but I should not be surprised as it was a massive operation. Imagine, every appliance that had ever been made had to have an adaptation kit made for it! I was young at the time but I think ours went well, I remember they couldn't adapt the flame lance on the cooker, for some reason.

Nevertheless if they want to use hydrogen mix gas, it's probably a scam, a work/profit creation scheme, will cost us a fortune in the end, but we will have no choice.
Support our Health Service
You won't get better.

Stand up, or give up.

Diasi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11361
Re: Pie in the sky? (nothing to do with covid)
« Reply #64 on: Nov 20, 2020, 05:31:53 PM »
That may be the case but if they want to sell them they would have to have the home with heating.

A comparison of average costs for just the boiler installation in an average house:
Gas Combi Boiler - 1,500
Electric Combi Boiler - 4,000
Ground Source Heat Pump - 10,000 to 18,000
Air Source Heat Pump - 8,000 to 15,000
Hydrogen Combi Boiler - 1,500

The running costs of gas or hydrogen boilers make them the most economical for consumers with electric the most expensive. Ground or air source can be the most economical over a period of time as can be solar but there has to be an additional element of maintenance costs added.

You're correct, a heat source system wouldn't be any use, financially, for anyone over retirement age as you need 25 years to break even.

If natural gas boilers become redundant, the only real option would be a hydrogen boiler as it would be a mammoth task to retro-fit electric heating into an existing home.

There'll, no doubt, have to be a Government Warm Front type of grant, but only if you're on a means-tested benefit or Pension Credit of course.
« Last Edit: Nov 20, 2020, 05:48:13 PM by Diasi »
Make every day count, each day is precious.

"There is nothing more frightful than the ignorant in action".

Apart from the gullible in action.

Michael Rolls

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35603
Re: Pie in the sky? (nothing to do with covid)
« Reply #65 on: Nov 20, 2020, 05:44:22 PM »
I honestly don't remember the faulty installations but I should not be surprised as it was a massive operation. Imagine, every appliance that had ever been made had to have an adaptation kit made for it! I was young at the time but I think ours went well, I remember they couldn't adapt the flame lance on the cooker, for some reason.

Nevertheless if they want to use hydrogen mix gas, it's probably a scam, a work/profit creation scheme, will cost us a fortune in the end, but we will have no choice.
Well, my first wife and I had cause to call out a gas company engineer - can't remember why -  a couple or more years after the change, and he said 'but your installation hasn't been upgraded! Well, I told him, someone came and said that they had done it and I signed the paper they proffered!
Mike
The older I get, the better I was!

prestbury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 619
Re: Pie in the sky? (nothing to do with covid)
« Reply #66 on: Nov 21, 2020, 05:32:48 PM »
so what might the costs of running a hydrogen Combi-boiler

Around the same cost of running a gas Combi I believe.

The plan currently put forward is that Hydrogen can use the existing gas network where it is plastic pipe. The only issue is that around 20% of the network is still iron pipe, so this would have to be replaced

klondike

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12049
Re: Pie in the sky? (nothing to do with covid)
« Reply #67 on: Nov 21, 2020, 05:47:19 PM »
Around the same cost of running a gas Combi I believe.
Good news for hydrogen cars if it is. Gas is only a fraction of the price of electricity per kwh. Rather strange too as they'll probably be using electricity to make the hydrogen.

Ashy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 30885
Re: Pie in the sky? (nothing to do with covid)
« Reply #68 on: Nov 21, 2020, 05:50:03 PM »
The Hindenburg disaster puts me off hydrogen. Where do they propose to get it from anyways?
Support our Health Service
You won't get better.

Stand up, or give up.

prestbury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 619
Re: Pie in the sky? (nothing to do with covid)
« Reply #69 on: Nov 22, 2020, 03:24:03 PM »
The Hindenburg disaster puts me off hydrogen. Where do they propose to get it from anyways?

I understand the technology has moved on in the last 80 years.

klondike

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12049
Re: Pie in the sky? (nothing to do with covid)
« Reply #70 on: Nov 22, 2020, 03:55:34 PM »
The Hindenburg disaster puts me off hydrogen. Where do they propose to get it from anyways?
Electrolysis I expect as that is the only viable source. Maybe they can fire up some of those old coal fired power stations they mothballed to produce it.

eegrek

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 188
Re: Pie in the sky? (nothing to do with covid)
« Reply #71 on: Nov 22, 2020, 04:15:12 PM »
I saw a feature some weeks ago where a group of scientist in Canada were extracting Hydrogen from oil while is is still in the ground. Oil is a Hydrocarbon so extracting the Hydrogen leaves the Carbon still in the ground.


It is certainly a practical fuel but splitting water is not really an option unless you have plenty of electricity to spare such as in the Orkney islands, where they are using their spare power to produce Hydrogen and have a hydrogen powered Ferry in operation.

klondike

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12049
Re: Pie in the sky? (nothing to do with covid)
« Reply #72 on: Nov 22, 2020, 04:31:52 PM »
Wikipedia suggests some chemical processes to produce it and suggests little is made by electrolysis which I'd guessed at. I haven't read further to find out whether those processes require energy input or what the byproducts are but one mentioned was oxidation of methane which I imagine produces CO2.
« Last Edit: Nov 22, 2020, 04:35:35 PM by klondike »

Ashy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 30885
Re: Pie in the sky? (nothing to do with covid)
« Reply #73 on: Nov 22, 2020, 04:40:58 PM »
I understand the technology has moved on in the last 80 years.
Airship technology has changed but Hydrogen, I'm afraid, is still as dangerous as ever. I hope fuel cells are safe, but they would be terribly dangerous in a fire, and in London they have had fires in hydrogen fuel buses. And refuelling a bus is treated like fuelling a rocket.

It may be clean in use but it is not clean in production.
Support our Health Service
You won't get better.

Stand up, or give up.

eegrek

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 188
Re: Pie in the sky? (nothing to do with covid)
« Reply #74 on: Nov 22, 2020, 06:14:20 PM »
Yes Ashy you are right and I have just revisited the 'Fully Charged utube item' . The Orkney islands are also running a training course to train people how to safely run and service the hydrogen Fuel Cells so that they become experts in maritime use of the technology.