Author Topic: Prison not working, so what's the answer?  (Read 9484 times)

sparky

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Re: Prison not working, so what's the answer?
« Reply #30 on: Apr 01, 2014, 09:39:04 PM »
The days of National Service, are a world apart from society today, just before I went in the RAF in 1948, lads of my age respected or were scared of teachers and police authority, seeing how to days teachers cannot control their classes effectively, and teenagers openly goad and stick two fingers up at the police, what chance do you think a drill sergeant would have on a parade ground, they would just laugh at him or worse.

Citizen68

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Re: Prison not working, so what's the answer?
« Reply #31 on: Apr 01, 2014, 09:48:55 PM »
One of the best potential solutions I ever saw for younger people was the TV programme 'Boot Camp'. It was amazing too see how some of these tough young people were actually very vulnerable, as has been suggested elsewhere on this thread.


They were in a supported environment, but did have to learn to pull their weight or got nothing. I would have liked to see this idea extended.

Phil

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Re: Prison not working, so what's the answer?
« Reply #32 on: Apr 01, 2014, 10:46:15 PM »
The days of National Service, are a world apart from society today, just before I went in the RAF in 1948, lads of my age respected or were scared of teachers and police authority, seeing how to days teachers cannot control their classes effectively, and teenagers openly goad and stick two fingers up at the police, what chance do you think a drill sergeant would have on a parade ground, they would just laugh at him or worse.


If only social workers & probation officers knew the sheer utter comtempt with which they are regarded by the criminal fraternity.
"I've stopped arguing with idiots. They will only bring me down to their level and beat me with experience.”

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Aduk

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Re: Prison not working, so what's the answer?
« Reply #33 on: Apr 01, 2014, 10:49:46 PM »
The days of National Service, are a world apart from society today, just before I went in the RAF in 1948, lads of my age respected or were scared of teachers and police authority, seeing how to days teachers cannot control their classes effectively, and teenagers openly goad and stick two fingers up at the police, what chance do you think a drill sergeant would have on a parade ground, they would just laugh at him or worse.

That might be because some police taser protesters, use unnecessary force and target ethnic minority groups in stop-and-searches. Most teachers that I have experienced are excellent and the modern classroom is far better than the one where you would be threatened with the cane.  Fear and authority is not what youngsters or prisoners need. They've already had too much of that in their lives. I would class national service as a backwards step.

Phil

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Re: Prison not working, so what's the answer?
« Reply #34 on: Apr 01, 2014, 10:59:59 PM »
That might be because some police taser protesters, use unnecessary force and target ethnic minority groups in stop-and-searches. Most teachers that I have experienced are excellent and the modern classroom is far better than the one where you would be threatened with the cane.  Fear and authority is not what youngsters or prisoners need. They've already had too much of that in their lives. I would class national service as a backwards step.


I've worked on joint operations with the police & it's true that a disproportionately high number of a certain group of ethnic minorities ate targetted for stop-and-searches but the reason being that the very same certain group of ethnic minorites are responsible for a disproportionately high number of criminal offences.



"I've stopped arguing with idiots. They will only bring me down to their level and beat me with experience.”

Paraphrased from George Carlin

Aduk

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Re: Prison not working, so what's the answer?
« Reply #35 on: Apr 01, 2014, 11:04:12 PM »
Yet a lot of the stop and searches are proven to be completely unnecessary and underline the systematic institutional racism in the predominantly white police force. Just look at the way the MET have handled the Stephen Lawrence case.

cheddar-caveman

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Re: Prison not working, so what's the answer?
« Reply #36 on: Apr 02, 2014, 08:48:53 AM »
For first time, young offenders so many of us (are we right) seem to think that a good dose of discipline is what they need, something that they have obviously never had from their (useless) parents. Boot Camp (or Borstal as it was here) seemed to work but now we have the bloody Human Rights crap from Brussels and you are not even allowed to shout at these kids without them suing you for verbal abuse. Until we break away from Brussels, ditch this OTT jurisdiction and take control of our country again, there is little we can (legally) do.
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ronyork

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Re: Prison not working, so what's the answer?
« Reply #37 on: Apr 02, 2014, 09:19:14 AM »
National service would not work! Lets try it. Disipline works .yes there has  always been the smart set mainly from badly parented boys/girls. You learn to look after yourselves eat food thats put in front of you and dress in a decent manner. I wonder how many contributers to this site have had the pleasure of service life if disipline is strong enough it works, If these misfits in society do not learn after two years of N/S give them another dose.

Jackie

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Re: Prison not working, so what's the answer?
« Reply #38 on: Apr 02, 2014, 09:30:39 AM »
Thats what a lot of the young are craving, is ( non abusive ) discipline.
 
Editing to add: did any one ever watch a tv programmer " the worlds strictest parents "where each week they sent two separate unruly teens to a different country to live with a strict parent and their children for one week. Oh yes they tried to get away with murder whilst living under that family's household rules, but they got both discipline and respect when earnt. To see the changed formation as they said their good byes and returned home to their parent was amazing.

cheddar-caveman

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Re: Prison not working, so what's the answer?
« Reply #39 on: Apr 02, 2014, 10:20:41 AM »

National service would not work! Lets try it. Disipline works .yes there has  always been the smart set mainly from badly parented boys/girls. You learn to look after yourselves eat food thats put in front of you and dress in a decent manner. I wonder how many contributers to this site have had the pleasure of service life if disipline is strong enough it works, If these misfits in society do not learn after two years of N/S give them another dose.

When I joined the Navy 1955, National Service was in full swing. We all did the basic training together, National and General service personnel, basically six weeks square bashing where everybody learnt discipline, no matter what your background. There were those who rebelled who suddenly found life much harder for themselves and there were those who toed the line and realised that by doing so, life became easier. Yes we were shouted at, called all the names under the sun, (would'nt be allowed under today HR crap) but most of us learnt that to obey was to survive. At the end of that period we went our own ways into whichever trade we had chosen but every week there was "Captains Parade" where once again we were reminded of discipline! I can tell you that after a couple of times running around the parade ground with a Lee Enfield rifle on my shoulder when every body else was off chilling out, soon taught me to go easy on myself and do what they wanted.
I went on to serve fifteen years in the Navy and it gave me the best background for life in the outside world that no other vocation could.
Yes, National Service would sort out a lot of todays problems with un disciplined youth.


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xetog

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Re: Prison not working, so what's the answer?
« Reply #40 on: Apr 02, 2014, 12:22:29 PM »
I hardly feel qualified to pontificate on this subject, but as I am at a bit of a loose end today, I will.  I am encouraged by the majority of excellent posts on this subject and congratulate my fellow PF posters for their depth of concern and perspicacity.  I don't want to dent my reputation as a paid up member of the Hang e'm & flog e'm brigade, but it does occur to me that as someone has pointed out, the range of offenders who are to be punished is huge and unfortunately the system seems to be based on a one size fits all penal policy.  Not only is sentencing irrational with murderers getting less time than council tax avoiders, the government privatisation of the prison service has landed us with something as cheap as chips, but unfit for purpose.
 
First we need to divide up the seriousness of crime.  Initially perhaps, decriminalise things like council tax avoidance (a start is being made by making TV license avoidance a civil issue), but at the same time adding some practical teeth to punishments than can be handed for this level of crime.  Perhaps giving real teeth to community service.  It does nobody any good to give a criminal record to those who have committed this level of crime.  Loutish young should perhaps get some kind of boot camp treatment.  Anything with actual bodily harm or the potential for such an outcome such as burglary, could then be treated with the seriousness it deserves.  Current civil actions, such as divorce, or boundary issues should remain as a distinctly separate class of law.  Prison should be reserved for the most serious level of crime.
 
The problem remains with what to do about prisons.  Whilst it is a truism that nobody who commits a crime believes they will be caught, let alone punished, we have a serious level of recidivism amongst the criminal community and I can only assume it is because they are mentally unable to see beyond the next fix or high or whatever else we want to call it.  This to me seems to be either an educational, or a medical (mental health issue).  We live in a society where celebrity, chance, and easy come, easy go is the rule, so it is unsurprising that crime proliferates amongst the poor.  Surely our efforts should be going into education and rehabilitation so that those who offended for this reason could be given some new incentive to avoid a criminal life style.  Perhaps if they rubbed shoulders with a few incarcerated bankers and politicians we might get a better class of criminal!  I believe that a child (youth) should not be allowed to graduate from school to the workplace until the achieve a certain standard in the 3 R's,  but failing that uneducated prisoners should serve an indeterminate sentence until they achieve a certain level of education.
 
The problem there is that private companies who run prisons have no incentive to improve matters, indeed an ever increasing criminal class is in their interests as it brings in more prisons and more profit.  The government just want a cheap way of taking criminals out of society, but until we return them as educated, wage earning capable citizens, the prison population will just continue to grow.  The potential for criminal hierarchy in prisons must be stopped along with illegal drugs and any other form of behind bars criminality and only then will we get a system that has the potential to work.
 
 
Sorry for the slightly incoherent presentation here as I have typed it just as it came out of my head (chaotic), but lunch time looms and I don't have time to change it, so thanks in advance for your indulgence.
 
 
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Granny49

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Re: Prison not working, so what's the answer?
« Reply #41 on: Apr 02, 2014, 01:38:38 PM »
Hi xetog.  Most important question - how are you today?

You have, as always given us a meaty post to get our teeth into but I feel - just my thoughts as we go through the process - that a step has been missed out.

My first step would be an assessment of each guilty person on their first offence to see if they are lacking in basic education, if they are on drugs, an achoholic, suffering from a mental illness, jobless, etc.  They should be offered a) a chance to repay society in relation to their crime and b) a chance to rectify the problem the at base of the criminal behaviour.  If they agree to this and stick to it they would not receive a criminal record but it could be added if, at anytime in a proscribed period, they break the law again. 
Don't get my personality and my attitude confused.  My personality is me, my attitude depends on you.

Jackie

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Re: Prison not working, so what's the answer?
« Reply #42 on: Apr 02, 2014, 01:45:10 PM »
Something also needs to change as to community service in payment for their crime, what use it that to the victims, they need to compensate them.

xetog

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Re: Prison not working, so what's the answer?
« Reply #43 on: Apr 02, 2014, 02:54:23 PM »
Yes G49.  I am in 100% agreement and did have a slight inclination to mention that as part of my diatribe, but if I included all of what poured out of my mind you would all be asleep by the time I had finished.  It is not like me to prescribe a more liberal attitude to things, but the existing state of affairs clearly isn't working and faulty at every level.  justice is a very complex system that has progressed in an ad hoc and partisan manner in this country for two millennia.  What we have now is  hotchpotch of unfair and discriminatory processes that make little sense and as long as we keep shutting the problem away behind bars and failing to recognise social pressures it will continue to deteriorate.
 
 
the problem seems to me that we rely upon politicians to remake the rules to suit their own preference.  Look at the mess they have made of the NHS in the last decade and ask yourself whether a better system could not have resulted from decisions made by sticking a pin in a wish list of must-haves  and practical desires. A less practical system would be hard to design, yet we have to live with it.  Our system of justice is much the same.  It would be nice if we could just stop and redesign an holistic system which too into account all the vagaries that exist in the existing mess and design them out, but who has the courage to take it on?  Certainly not the legal professions, or the politicos/mandarins.
 
 
What we need is an enquiry of brave, independent minded citizens to sit down with a brief to outline a way in which all of our major public institutions could be reformed for the benefit of the masses.  Education must surely be the key and a flexibility that prevents us from rigidity of mind when dealing with individual problems.
 
 
I rest my case!
 
 
On the health front, it's all a bit of a fraud really.  Just under 2 weeks ago I had a minor operation to remove a Basal cell Carcinoma from my cheek.  I have had it done before with no problems, but this time the stiches at the end of the incision tore through the skin and left me with an open wound.  When the sutures were removed the nurse should have referred me back to the hospital, instead she put some steri-strips over it, hoping it would knit.  It simply pulled apart and kept bleeding.  I called the hospital myself and they called me back in and have packed the wound with a seaweed dressing and let me home with a strict "do nothing" instruction so I am stuck on the sofa with threats of excommunication from my wife if I move a muscle, hence my subjecting you all to sleep inducing posts ;D .  Strictly, I am fine and can't wait to get out and finish off the deck I am building, the sooner the better as far as I am concerned.  I have to say that in spite of my frequent railing against the NHS, my treatment has been superb.  The Great Western Hospital is new to me, but when I rang with the problem a consultant surgeon (looking like Poirot, but answering to Mohammed) called me back and asked me to immediately attend his surgery where he would find the time to sort out the problem.  It took an hour and a half and a further consult from a plastic surgeon to decide what to do, get it done and put me back on my feet.  He has also made room for me in his dressing clinic tomorrow.  I could not ask for better.  But thanks for asking.
 
 
M. 8)
If you want to control peoples thoughts, first control their words.

Granny49

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Re: Prison not working, so what's the answer?
« Reply #44 on: Apr 02, 2014, 04:45:56 PM »
Good to hear you are being looked after and, of course, your wife is quite right :)
Don't get my personality and my attitude confused.  My personality is me, my attitude depends on you.