Author Topic: Another benefits fiasco!  (Read 6355 times)

cheddar-caveman

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Re: Another benefits fiasco!
« Reply #30 on: Apr 25, 2014, 08:02:22 PM »
They are coming ;D
This post is my opinion, which you may not like, but I'm entitled to it.
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Phil

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Re: Another benefits fiasco!
« Reply #31 on: Apr 25, 2014, 08:23:33 PM »
I would rather believe credible and official sources of information such as HMRC and the DWP than what you and Phil say - no disrespect.


Interesting to read in the article that welfare fraud is smaller than accidental overpayments due to error, which totalled £2.2bn. It's also smaller than the amount of money underpaid to those entitled to it: £1.3bn.

"Benefit underpayments save us more money than benefit fraud costs us. By the most conservative estimates, tax avoidance and tax evasion outweighs benefit fraud eightfold. But the constant target of argument – "scroungers", "benefit cheats", and more, isn't the well-heeled middle classes who knock a little off their tax return, or the high-rollers with elaborate offshore schemes.
"Instead, it's those at the bottom of society – for the government, perhaps, it makes it easier to sell the public swingeing cuts to the safety net that millions of families, both in and out of work, rely on to get by. For the Mail, it's easier to sell papers by buying into the easy preconceptions of their readers than bothering to challenge them."


This part of the Guardian article sums it up nicely for me.


In a funny way I'm quite envious of you because your belief in all Government statistics will ensure that you exist in a cosy little Utopia where the Government tells you that everything's ok.
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sparky

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Re: Another benefits fiasco!
« Reply #32 on: Apr 25, 2014, 08:26:22 PM »
PP, Ask that question  again after the 2015 election.

Granny49

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Re: Another benefits fiasco!
« Reply #33 on: Apr 25, 2014, 08:41:08 PM »
Just remind me again, how many MP's does UKIP have??

Naughty PP.  That would mean the UKIP supporters have to look at facts :)
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Aduk

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Re: Another benefits fiasco!
« Reply #34 on: Apr 25, 2014, 10:47:04 PM »
Just remind me again, how many MP's does UKIP have??


Hi Peter, I've noticed they've gone very silent.


I think the answer you're looking for is a big fat ZERO.


Big party and all that tut tut  :) ;)

Phil

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Re: Another benefits fiasco!
« Reply #35 on: Apr 26, 2014, 11:53:03 AM »

Hi Peter, I've noticed they've gone very silent.

I think the answer you're looking for is a big fat ZERO.

Big party and all that tut tut  :) ;)


Most of the time you come across as reasonably intelligent & then you ruin the illusion by inferring that the fact that UKIP don't have any MPs currently is a reason why UKIP won't have any in the future.
"I've stopped arguing with idiots. They will only bring me down to their level and beat me with experience.”

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sparky

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Re: Another benefits fiasco!
« Reply #36 on: Apr 26, 2014, 12:30:10 PM »
Aduk/Deej and Co, Instead of continuing to point out that until 2015 we have no UKIP MPs, you might pause and focus on the crooked bunch of deviants that we are saddled with at the moment, who between them have ruined what was GREAT BRITAIN, and by allowing this country to become a haven for the dregs from countries around the world.

avalonmpk2

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Re: Another benefits fiasco!
« Reply #37 on: Apr 26, 2014, 12:49:51 PM »
A few facts from a Guardian article dispelling the myths about the scale of benefit fraud, even though the right-wing media would have us think it was a huge problem that hits the public purse the heaviest. The reality is quite different.

A recent poll by the TUC showed British people believe 27% of the welfare budget is fraudulently claimed, when the reality is a mere 0.7% according to DWP figures. In total, this is £1.2bn over a year. Compare this to the tax gap HMRC estimate between what is should receive and what it actually gets - at more than £30bn a year.

Here's the rest of the article from the Guardian.

"Welfare fraud is a drop in the ocean compared to tax avoidance"

As Joanne Gibbons' case shows, benefit underpayments save us more than 'cheats' cost us. We need to target the real villains

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/01/welfare-fraud-tax-avoidance
Who has ever believed 100% anything that The Guardian prints, their proof reading is the worst in the country - so I would not believe every word of that paper - good intentions maybe and often lesser distortions than other publications. But . . .
At least when it comes to tax avoidance people are using their own wealth whereas benefits cheats are using ours. Why should one person have to pay more tax than another - you don't have to pay a higher price for bread than your neighbour - all direct taxation is theft, most particularly when it gets into the hands of politicians and clerics
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Citizen68

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Re: Another benefits fiasco!
« Reply #38 on: Apr 26, 2014, 02:03:25 PM »
Actually, Aduk, I would dispute any figures HMRC come out with on taxes owed. There are three members of this family at the moment disputing taxes we do not calculate we owe, and their computer system is a recognised joke for inaccuracies. One of us gets fresh tax codes every week! We are not tax avoiding, only trying to stop them taking money from us that we aren't really due to pay.


Give me back former days, any time, when you could speak easily to a person who really knew their job, because they'd probably been doing it for years, and between you it would be sorted out properly and quickly.


Computerisation is great for many things, but it's not progressive when the system is not fit for purpose and just screws up everyone's records.

Johned

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Re: Another benefits fiasco!
« Reply #39 on: Apr 26, 2014, 02:42:35 PM »
Since Gladstone (before my time I stress) introduced PAYE, the state has come between master and servant before wages are paid and is this morally right?  Debatable maybe.  As for the indigent poor, I have read that at the turn of the 19th century there was a degree of sympathy by the authorities and those seeking refuge for their families in workhouses were treated humanely but by mid 19th century the reverse was in vogue whereby the poor were basically viewed by the middle and upper classes, as poor through dishonesty and fecklessness. Workhouses by then, had a harsh regimen and poor diet.  In modern times the state arguably overindulged the poor or so we are led to believe, leading to excesses resulting in a reluctance to find or get back into paid work. Now it appears the wheel is turning again and society is once again discriminating against the genuine cases because of the excess flaunted by a few exaggerated by the gutter press, who we are led to believe, lead couch potato existences with sufficient supplies of cigs and booze to keep them afloat whilst watching their massive sized plasma teles.  These things do seem cyclical.  As for immigration from Eastern Europe, in the little town wherein I dwell, we are not faced apparently with much of a problem.  There are numerous young lady assistants with "accents" working in our local supermarkets who seem very pleasant and polite and I took note of a local scrap lorry driver working locally who was by his accent from Eastern Europe but, at least, he was in gainful employment and not a burden on the state!   

avalonmpk2

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Re: Another benefits fiasco!
« Reply #40 on: Apr 26, 2014, 03:35:16 PM »



"Computerisation is great for many things, but it's not progressive when the system is not fit for purpose and just screws up everyone's records."


Computers do not make mistakes or screw things up, the fault lies with the operator or programmer. Usually as a result of slovenly attitude to the operation of said apparatus, or downright incompetence.
Stone walls do not a prison make nor iron bars a cage.
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Aduk

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Re: Another benefits fiasco!
« Reply #41 on: Apr 26, 2014, 08:04:10 PM »

Most of the time you come across as reasonably intelligent & then you ruin the illusion by inferring that the fact that UKIP don't have any MPs currently is a reason why UKIP won't have any in the future.


Thanks, Phil. I have you down as relatively intelligent as well.

I can certainly see Farage probably winning his own constituency but can't see where else the seats are coming from. They'll win a few more in the European Elections however.

Aduk

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Re: Another benefits fiasco!
« Reply #42 on: Apr 26, 2014, 08:09:22 PM »
Actually, Aduk, I would dispute any figures HMRC come out with on taxes owed. There are three members of this family at the moment disputing taxes we do not calculate we owe, and their computer system is a recognised joke for inaccuracies. One of us gets fresh tax codes every week! We are not tax avoiding, only trying to stop them taking money from us that we aren't really due to pay.


Give me back former days, any time, when you could speak easily to a person who really knew their job, because they'd probably been doing it for years, and between you it would be sorted out properly and quickly.


Computerisation is great for many things, but it's not progressive when the system is not fit for purpose and just screws up everyone's records.


Hi Citizen, I'm sorry about your negative experience with HMRC. You are quite right that the rich pay a lot in tax and play an important role as wealth and job creators. However, I don't think this makes it right that big businesses such as Starbucks and Amazons find loopholes to avoid paying the taxes they owe for the considerable profit they make at the expense of their consumers and employees. Nor should rich individuals resort to offshore islands and tax havens to avoid paying tax. The thing I dispute most is tax evasion does cost the treasury and the public purse a lot more than benefit fraud.

Aduk

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Re: Another benefits fiasco!
« Reply #43 on: Apr 26, 2014, 08:12:14 PM »
Who has ever believed 100% anything that The Guardian prints, their proof reading is the worst in the country - so I would not believe every word of that paper - good intentions maybe and often lesser distortions than other publications. But . . .
At least when it comes to tax avoidance people are using their own wealth whereas benefits cheats are using ours. Why should one person have to pay more tax than another - you don't have to pay a higher price for bread than your neighbour - all direct taxation is theft, most particularly when it gets into the hands of politicians and clerics


Hi avalonmpk2, I don't believe everything the Guardian say. They are famously known for their spelling errors and obviously have a leftist agenda. However, I have found them to be a more a more reputable and reliable source as a newspaper than most others, certainly more so than the Daily Mail. I would like to think even Daily Mail readers and those to the right could acknowledge that.

avalonmpk2

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Re: Another benefits fiasco!
« Reply #44 on: Apr 26, 2014, 10:56:51 PM »
As I said:"good intentions maybe and often lesser distortions than other publications. But . . ."
Stone walls do not a prison make nor iron bars a cage.
Richard Lovelace
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