Author Topic: DHSS benefit fraud - who investigates and prosecutes  (Read 3434 times)

Goingtoseed

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Re: DHSS benefit fraud - who investigates and prosecutes
« Reply #15 on: Aug 17, 2020, 07:53:55 PM »
In the case you mention, it's difficult to be concise without all the facts of course, as I have attempted to mitigate on here before? However, that said the Convicted did at that time, with malice aforethought defraud the public purse of £12,000 pounds, thirty years ago. He therefore  'obtained a pecuniary advantage by deception'.

The Law specifically on 'Benefit Crime/Fraud' (his offence today) states;

... The CPS took on the prosecution of DWP criminal investigations in 2012, and until the restructure of fraud work in July 2018, these cases were handled exclusively by the Specialist Fraud Division (SFD). Since the restructure, only DWP cases meeting the SFD referral criteria continue to be prosecuted in SFD, with the others handled by the specialist fraud centres in CPS Wessex, Mersey-Cheshire and Wales.

Section 128 of the Welfare Reform Act 2012 (WRA) permits the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and persons providing services to the Secretary of State to disclose social security information to the Director for Public Prosecutions (DPP) for the purpose of the functions exercised by the DPP.

Section 129 of the WRA 2012 prescribes the use that can be made of social security (including tax credit) information disclosed by the Secretary of State under Section 128 and creates an offence of unlawful disclosure. CPS prosecutors disclosing social security information in accordance with the DPP’s functions and CPS policies will incur no liability...

In sentencing currently, such values as;

Did the offender plan the crime to deprive, was he a 'professional' (scammer con-man)?
Was there a victim and were they cruelly susceptible (elderly or disabled)
Was any physical harm proffered? 
Did deliberate concealment occur?
Was the motivation greed or political (terrorism)? including identity deceit?
Was embezzlement or detinue involved?
Was encitement to others to become inclusive made?
Any previous offences?
How long did he persist with the fraudulent benefit claim?

This list is not exhaustive, but it seems to me none of the above were applicable to your friend.

A prison term of up to 10 years can apply for this offence. The use of a custodial sentence with suspension seems right and the term I consider to have been something I would have handed down myself - NB please at that time, within the sentencing guidelines applicable? Although I expect he actually never served any time, remand etc being taken into account? I would conjecture that he may have also been severally pursued for bankruptcy in a civil arena by a preferential creditor and the bench took these circumstantial fiscal chastisements into account as well. I presume no order was made for costs?

Today he could under new guidelines to be handed a fine and a non-custodial sentence.


Thanks for that - I appreciate your comments.


He actually had to serve the 1 month (in Strangeways). He should have been out after 2 weeks but he lost that privilege and had a further two weeks added on (served 6 weeks in total) for 'disruptive behaviour'. This was how the story came about - he was in a cell (pre the riots) for one but with two others. These others were French Algerians and only spoke French, no English. He wanted out and to be put in a cell with others that he could talk to. He was locked up for 23 hours a day with these 'Froggies'. When he was refused he just kicked off with the prison staff.


Quite amusing really!   

Diasi

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Re: DHSS benefit fraud - who investigates and prosecutes
« Reply #16 on: Aug 17, 2020, 08:35:14 PM »

Thanks for that - I appreciate your comments.

He actually had to serve the 1 month (in Strangeways). He should have been out after 2 weeks but he lost that privilege and had a further two weeks added on (served 6 weeks in total) for 'disruptive behaviour'. This was how the story came about - he was in a cell (pre the riots) for one but with two others. These others were French Algerians and only spoke French, no English. He wanted out and to be put in a cell with others that he could talk to. He was locked up for 23 hours a day with these 'Froggies'. When he was refused he just kicked off with the prison staff.

Quite amusing really!

I fail to see anything remotely amusing about a convicted fraudster with a scant disregard for the law even when he's in prison.
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Michael Rolls

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Re: DHSS benefit fraud - who investigates and prosecutes
« Reply #17 on: Aug 17, 2020, 09:35:10 PM »

Yes you can work AND claim DLA/PIP. However if the DWP get wind of it and they believe that the working creates a doubt as to the accuracy of the claim, they will cancel the award and demand that what has been paid is returned to them as well as go for a prosecution.


It's very much like someone who claims to suffer from depression and anxiety, pain as well as being unable to walk more than 20 metres yet has a Motability car.
The DWP would argue that the mere fact of being able to drive a car - using your legs and having sufficient mental awareness and ability to drive safely, could well mean that they should not be having the DLA/PIP award in the first place.


That argument has been used many times by the DWP when the claimant has opted for an appeal to be heard by the Tribunal Service.
You are overlooking the fact that a Motobility car is provided for the benefit of the disabled person. It does not necessarily have to be driven by him/her. Also the comment regarding ability to drive calling into question the award is totally erroneous. I don't know where you got that information  but you have either misunderstood it or been misled. To assume that physical disability equates to lack of mental awareness, again is wildly wide of the mark.
Mike

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John V

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Re: DHSS benefit fraud - who investigates and prosecutes
« Reply #18 on: Aug 17, 2020, 10:28:29 PM »


Er - isn't that what I said?
The Law specifically on 'Benefit Crime/Fraud' (his offence today) states;

... The CPS took on the prosecution of DWP criminal investigations in 2012, and until the restructure of fraud work in July 2018 ... ? ???


Difficult to know what you meant as you’re just giving link quotes from the CPS website. The CPS was created in the mid-80s as an independent body replacing the police who previously prosecuted. The DWP does hold its own investigations, but so do many other organizations, but has never been allowed to prosecute.

What you said, or rather someone else said was:

'The CPS took on the prosecution of DWP criminal investigations in 2012, and until the restructure of fraud work in July 2018 ... '

John V

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Re: DHSS benefit fraud - who investigates and prosecutes
« Reply #19 on: Aug 17, 2020, 10:31:11 PM »


Eventually you'd get caught. !!

Are you saying that ALL the 'fiddlers' out there will eventually get caught..?   What a load of cr*p.


 Yes. If you’re doing it under your own name and hoping no one will find out they will eventually find out.
 

Goingtoseed

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Re: DHSS benefit fraud - who investigates and prosecutes
« Reply #20 on: Aug 17, 2020, 11:08:11 PM »
I fail to see anything remotely amusing about a convicted fraudster with a scant disregard for the law even when he's in prison.


The offence of theft and his imprisonment isn't amusing.
What I do find amusing knowing the type of person this guy is is the fact that he was 'banged up' in a cell that was built in Victorian times for one with two others. That is bad enough. To find in that cramped space that the two cell mates couldn't speak a word of English and he couldn't speak French, was the icing on the cake. Being the friendly type of guy he is - a 'people person' they might as well have put him in an isolation cell. Then demanding and being refused that he be re-housed in more sanitary conditions (bucket for a toilet between the three of them) as well as others that spoke English he reacted in the only way he knew how - refused to work, refused to eat and communicated with the prison staff in the same way that they spoke to him.
Thankfully he didn't decide to tear the place and the officers apart - he was more than capable.
 

biglouis

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Re: DHSS benefit fraud - who investigates and prosecutes
« Reply #21 on: Aug 17, 2020, 11:11:27 PM »
Come the recession there will be a lot more amateur "business" sellers on Ebay but most of them will not make any serious money. Ebays fees are brutal, and by the time you have paid them, Paypal, and all the other expenses you can be left with very little in your hand.


If you are registered with HMRC all these things (along with a whole lot of other stuff) become "legitimate business expenses", Dealing from home you can claim part of your rent/mortgage, Council Tax, heating/lighting/phone/broadband etc. HMRC even has little recipes set up so you dont have to work it out if you dont want to.
Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools.

biglouis

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Re: DHSS benefit fraud - who investigates and prosecutes
« Reply #22 on: Aug 17, 2020, 11:15:59 PM »
Quote
To find in that cramped space that the two cell mates couldn't speak a word of English and he couldn't speak French, was the icing on the cake. Being the friendly type of guy he is - a 'people person' they might as well have put him in an isolation cell.

If you watch Banged UP Abroad you can often find that people confined in a foreign prison sometimes take the opportunity to learn the local language as well as teaching English in return. The guy in Midnight Express learned Turkish and taught English to some of his fellow prisoners to pass the time. In the process he learned some useful tips on how to organize and escape.
Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools.

GrannyMac

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Re: DHSS benefit fraud - who investigates and prosecutes
« Reply #23 on: Aug 17, 2020, 11:20:26 PM »
Self employed people have long had 'idiot guides' to enable them to submit their tax returns, I I used to prepare my husband's.  Initially he paid an accountant, but as he didn't have business premises, or employ anyone, it was simple enough for me to take it on.
Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right.

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Goingtoseed

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Re: DHSS benefit fraud - who investigates and prosecutes
« Reply #24 on: Aug 17, 2020, 11:24:14 PM »
You are overlooking the fact that a Motobility car is provided for the benefit of the disabled person. It does not necessarily have to be driven by him/her. Also the comment regarding ability to drive calling into question the award is totally erroneous. I don't know where you got that information  but you have either misunderstood it or been misled. To assume that physical disability equates to lack of mental awareness, again is wildly wide of the mark.
Mike


I quoted a particulate case where someone claimed not be able to walk more than 20 metres, suffered from a spinal condition and had a long history of mental issues - depression & anxiety.
I have seen many DWP submissions in appeal cases that if a car is being used by the claimant that in itself the DWP argue that if the claimant can drive then that does not equate to the disabilities that have been claimed and how they affect the person. In fact that is one of the general questions that is asked of the claimant during the assessment process - do you drive a car - do you have a driving licence - can you drive a car.


Case in question: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5d121f2b40f0b6350c9e4058/CPIP_2477_2018-00.pdf

biglouis

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Re: DHSS benefit fraud - who investigates and prosecutes
« Reply #25 on: Aug 17, 2020, 11:58:15 PM »
If you have a simple working from home business then it IS simple to do your own accounts, particularly is you use cash basis rather than traditional accounting.  However if your business involves a lot of traveling, staying in hotels etc then it can get more complicated.


Every August (a slow time for antiques) dealers head out from the UK across Europe on buying trips. A canny accountant can negotiate one three quarters to two thirds off the cost of the trip for what is essentially a working holiday. Obviously the tax man is not going to accept that there is no aspect of personal entertainment in your heading out to Paris or even London. But you can have a damned good trip and write most of it off as business expenses. Been there, done it, got the t-shirt.
Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools.

John V

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Re: DHSS benefit fraud - who investigates and prosecutes
« Reply #26 on: Aug 18, 2020, 07:43:48 AM »


The offence of theft and his imprisonment isn't amusing.
What I do find amusing knowing the type of person this guy is is the fact that he was 'banged up' in a cell that was built in Victorian times for one with two others. That is bad enough. To find in that cramped space that the two cell mates couldn't speak a word of English and he couldn't speak French, was the icing on the cake. Being the friendly type of guy he is - a 'people person' they might as well have put him in an isolation cell. Then demanding and being refused that he be re-housed in more sanitary conditions (bucket for a toilet between the three of them) as well as others that spoke English he reacted in the only way he knew how - refused to work, refused to eat and communicated with the prison staff in the same way that they spoke to him.
Thankfully he didn't decide to tear the place and the officers apart - he was more than capable.


 Good morning Goingtossed,
I had direct research experience of the Prison Service in the late 80’s, fortunately on the right side of it. It’s all changed now, but those days included severe beatings and isolation as standard practice, bordering today on what we’d class as torture. As your friend was a ‘short term’ inmate he would have got nothing, just locked-up 23 hours a day with an hour exercise and one shower a week. Strangeways together with Wandsworth, were known as ‘discipline’ prisons. Had your friend been violent the staff in those days would have taken him apart. Honestly. 
 

Scrumpy

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Re: DHSS benefit fraud - who investigates and prosecutes
« Reply #27 on: Aug 18, 2020, 08:23:24 AM »

Thanks for that - I appreciate your comments.


He actually had to serve the 1 month (in Strangeways). He should have been out after 2 weeks but he lost that privilege and had a further two weeks added on (served 6 weeks in total) for 'disruptive behaviour'. This was how the story came about - he was in a cell (pre the riots) for one but with two others. These others were French Algerians and only spoke French, no English. He wanted out and to be put in a cell with others that he could talk to. He was locked up for 23 hours a day with these 'Froggies'. When he was refused he just kicked off with the prison staff.


Quite amusing really!


Who gives a damn about his surroundings..  Where did he think he was  (Butlins).!!  He sounds as if he is up his own a*se and thinks he is so bloody important and .. he certainly isn't clever to even be there in the first place. Or use the language barrier to learn another language.. I find it amusing too but not the same way as you do..


 Your descriptive word of the French race says much about the type of people you and your (Friend) are..
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klondike

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Re: DHSS benefit fraud - who investigates and prosecutes
« Reply #28 on: Aug 18, 2020, 08:58:23 AM »

I quoted a particulate case where someone claimed not be able to walk more than 20 metres, suffered from a spinal condition and had a long history of mental issues - depression & anxiety.
I have seen many DWP submissions in appeal cases that if a car is being used by the claimant that in itself the DWP argue that if the claimant can drive then that does not equate to the disabilities that have been claimed and how they affect the person. In fact that is one of the general questions that is asked of the claimant during the assessment process - do you drive a car - do you have a driving licence - can you drive a car.


Case in question: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5d121f2b40f0b6350c9e4058/CPIP_2477_2018-00.pdf
You seem to make quite a study of prosecutions for benefit fraud.
So long and thanks for all the fish

Scrumpy

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Re: DHSS benefit fraud - who investigates and prosecutes
« Reply #29 on: Aug 18, 2020, 11:58:45 AM »



Cassandra...  Don't give FREE advise to those who deserve to be where they are...


Let them scan the internet and see what  'Loop holes' they can find.... 
Everything will be alright in the end, and if it’s not alright, its not the end.